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Kyle Harris

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #150 on: February 16, 2009, 01:19:32 PM »

Kyle

The days of me passing on information on this site has come to an end, but I gave you some suggestions to search out and just mentioned the Prestwick 1st hole as a single example.

I thought I was helping, apparently not.

Melvyn

PS Pat - No insult from me - but why do you bother, trying to be the big man, its a discussion group for God's sake.

Melvyn,

I'm rereading the accounts now, actually. However, I can tell you there is rather frequent mention of balls landing within 5-10 yards of the flag, and bunkers needing 40-60 yard carries to be overcome....

The prose is certainly much more elegant. I'm fond of hearing how players, "achieve the hillock and secure the hole with two fine putts from there."

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #151 on: February 16, 2009, 01:26:57 PM »

Maybe one of our golf historians can shed some light,

What do you think Melvin and I are?
For my part, the history of play pre-1931 has been my life for the last couple of decades.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #152 on: February 16, 2009, 01:30:42 PM »

Kyle

I am not just talking about a few matches I sent out, there are hundreds of reports from the mid 1850 onwards. Every time a new club opened a game was arranged and reported plus weekly reports in papers plus the big matches. The latter years of the 19th Century even more reports published.

As for the mention of yards from the pin or the length of a long Tee shot is in no way what we have been talking about. If you are 9 yards or feet from the pin do you need a tape measure of rangefinder to select your club? Well I’ll let you answer that.

Why do some people use Irons on a Tee when most use drivers? Does the rangefinder or yardage books give the answer to that?

Melvyn


Kyle Harris

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #153 on: February 16, 2009, 01:39:55 PM »

Kyle

I am not just talking about a few matches I sent out, there are hundreds of reports from the mid 1850 onwards. Every time a new club opened a game was arranged and reported plus weekly reports in papers plus the big matches. The latter years of the 19th Century even more reports published.

As for the mention of yards from the pin or the length of a long Tee shot is in no way what we have been talking about. If you are 9 yards or feet from the pin do you need a tape measure of rangefinder to select your club? Well I’ll let you answer that.

Why do some people use Irons on a Tee when most use drivers? Does the rangefinder or yardage books give the answer to that?

Melvyn



No Melvyn, you don't. But at the same time, if you're in a squirrely lie and your play is more than likely dictated by overcoming the lie than it is based on distance - especially if the ball is not very likely to fly further than 150 yards or so - club selection is not likely to be based on distance at all, but on the ability to advance the ball to a position where the flag could be attacked (and the distance more easily calculated). That is one aspect of the matches between Park and Morris that screams to me - these guys took what the course gave them and attacked when the lie dictated. However, I don't think any of us could be so certain that when the opportunity presented itself for a ranged attack at the flag, they weren't looking for numbers. Such occurrences just didn't present themselves all that frequently.

I'll definitely pursue the other accounts, but one thing I am deeming from reading the account you sent out is that the standard of success was much lower than it would become in the next few decades.

I would love to see how Tom Morris, Willie Park and gang would attack a course presented in today's conditioning.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #154 on: February 16, 2009, 01:40:23 PM »
Gee Melvyn...when I'm on the green I look at the putt and estimate how far away it is and stroke it...when I'm in the fairway I estimate how far the ball is from where I want it to go and stroke it...and maybe...just maybe...I'll pace it off to see how "accurate" my estimate was...and the next time, I might adjust accordingly...

But you are saying you never do that?  
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #155 on: February 16, 2009, 01:43:29 PM »
Shivas...those Bass guys are using "artificial" aids, with several sets of hooks, to catch the damn fish!  ;D

Is knowing a tree on the side of the fairway is 100 paces from the green, an artificial aid?

Melvyn claims these old guys never gave that any consideration...personally, I think it's all part of the equation for striking the ball.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Rich Goodale

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #156 on: February 16, 2009, 01:44:07 PM »
Sean...

So distance will not figure into your shot at all?

Rich, if you think courses were slower back in the day before irrigation than you just haven't played enough non irrigation golf.  

Ciao    

Sean

I was playing non-irrigated golf decades before you could even speak "fast" or "firm" much less spell either one of them.  And don't forget that most of your golf was played during the age of global warming.  When the planet was heading for a mini-ice age in the mid-70's you can't imagine how slow and soft most golf courses were.  And ask Melvyn what greens stimped at in Old Tom Morris's day, when any putt over 30 feet required a mashie niblick to get it to the hole.  Ah, those were the days, but they were anything but fast and firm.........

Rich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2009, 01:57:37 PM »
Sean...

So distance will not figure into your shot at all?

Rich, if you think courses were slower back in the day before irrigation than you just haven't played enough non irrigation golf.  

Ciao    

Sean

I was playing non-irrigated golf decades before you could even speak "fast" or "firm" much less spell either one of them.  And don't forget that most of your golf was played during the age of global warming.  When the planet was heading for a mini-ice age in the mid-70's you can't imagine how slow and soft most golf courses were.  And ask Melvyn what greens stimped at in Old Tom Morris's day, when any putt over 30 feet required a mashie niblick to get it to the hole.  Ah, those were the days, but they were anything but fast and firm.........

Rich

Rihc

I have played enough golf on hard baked, crusty courses in the summer to know a course can be fast and firm even if the the mower hasn't been out in a month.  In fact, the fastest greens I have ever come across were at Brora and those greens were down right shaggy.  It is more a question of dryness than shaving greens.  If there is no water, then there is f&f.  You needn't try to make it anymore complicated than that.  Unfortunately, it is very much a rarity these days to play a proper f&f course.  Now that nearly every course has water, supers can't resist turning it on.  It must be some sort of natural routine.  Get up, have a cup of coffee and turn on the water.  Its used in maintenance like antibiotics are used in medicine. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Rich Goodale

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #158 on: February 16, 2009, 02:02:28 PM »
Sean

If Brora is your standard for fast greens, you are sorely underexperienced.  I've played Brora regularly for over 25 years and have never seen it close to being as fast as Dornoch, at the same times, and in fact I have rarely found Brora fast at all.

Confused in Fife ???

Oh, and PS--except in 100-year (non)flood conditions (e.g. 2003) Dornoch greens are not particularly fast.

j-p p
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 02:32:52 PM by Rich Goodale »

Craig Sweet

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Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #159 on: February 16, 2009, 02:07:55 PM »
Shivas...

Jimmy Houston?  Have you been watching? ;)
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Kirk Gill

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Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #160 on: February 16, 2009, 02:53:30 PM »
I haven't slogged through all of this thread, as it reminded me of another thread. I searched a bit, and found these, for those who are interested:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35861.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37803.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36831.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33762.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,19968.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32848.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27624.0.html


Forgive me for re-posting this comment, as I didn't remember it, and I liked it:

Quote
Why is it so  hard for the pro-rangefinder contingent to understand that for some, the ability to make distance judgements is one of the many skills that golf tests? That uncertainty about distance, and the ability to make decisions based on one's own perception is part of what makes up the challenge of the game? And that if you aren't good at it than a price will be paid on the scorecard, just like if you're a weak putter or can't seem to hit the long irons.

Obviously some of the anti-RF folks aren't willing to concede that there are some whose joy in golf comes from a place where the rangefinder fits in perfectly. To quote myself from many pages ago - some are in love with the science of golf, and for them knowing EXACTLY how far they have to hit it is just part of their fun in being able to EXECUTE a shot of precisely that distance. For others, figuring out how far to hit it and then executing a shot based on that judgement is more enjoyable.

I get the notion that we all can't agree on the issue, but what stuns me is the inablility of some to even see what attraction there is in playing the game in a way differently than their own, and the desire amongst people to chastise or demean those who see things differently.

That said I think that long putters are crap.



 
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #161 on: February 16, 2009, 05:19:08 PM »
Sean

If Brora is your standard for fast greens, you are sorely underexperienced.  I've played Brora regularly for over 25 years and have never seen it close to being as fast as Dornoch, at the same times, and in fact I have rarely found Brora fast at all.

Confused in Fife ???

Oh, and PS--except in 100-year (non)flood conditions (e.g. 2003) Dornoch greens are not particularly fast.

j-p p

Rich

For some odd reason that weekend some 10 years ago the greens at Brora were the fastest I ever saw anywhere.  They were a strange combination of crusty and shiny and they never looked as though they would be fast.  In fact, they were miles quicker than Dornoch's that same week.  Balls just didn't stop.  I had never seen anything remotely close to those speeds over here until I played North Wales a few years ago.  It was once again the same situation - lack of water - not short grass.  Never mind Rich, I don't expect you to be everywhere at once despite your tendency to think of yerself in a godlike manner - tee hee.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tom Huckaby

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #162 on: February 17, 2009, 10:54:57 AM »
I am chuckling that this thread is still going on.  Some things do never change on this site.

But what has me chuckling most is the stupidity behind most of this.

It seems to me fundamental and obvious that IF all distance information was removed, and we all had to then rely on our senses, that would be another skill that could be taken advantage of, used, etc.  The game would be more pure, and that would be just great.

But is there a snowball's chance in hell that this is EVER going to happen?  That all distance information will be removed, and all golfers revert to this form of play?

I sure don't see it.  So one can pine away for this pure game all he wants... and denigrate those who have strayed from a purity they likely have never seen in their lives....

I just don't get the point.  Distance information is readily available on 99.9% of the world's golf courses.  So why argue about playing a superior game which doesn't exist, and almost certainly never will?

The next point is obvious to me also.... given it all does exist, what's the problem of using it via more efficient means?

TH

ps to TEP - you asked me a question last Friday, not sure if it's relevant now..but sure I have come across a few a'holes in my years of play.  Did I let them know it?  Not more than a handful of times.  It's jut not in my nature to do so.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #163 on: February 17, 2009, 11:05:06 AM »
Huck...

I agree with everything you posted and will add...that I for one find it difficult to believe that 100-150 years ago nobody cared about "distance"......you have to size up the distance to the hole to play this game, and in some cases I would think even 150 years ago they paced off how far a shot went or needed to go...for future reference when "sizing up" a shot.

But hey, our resident golf historians say it was all "feel"....so lets go with that....but last night I was outside tossing snowballs and really "feeling" it...yet my first toss was short...so I figured maybe the toss was further than I "felt"...so I tossed harder...and this time the snowball went sailing past the street light (yeah I know...) eventually, I got it dialed in...and figured out how much "feel" I needed to cover the distance from the ground to the street light...
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tom Huckaby

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #164 on: February 17, 2009, 11:12:16 AM »
Well I don't particuarly care what golfers did way back when...

My point remains that the genie is not going back in the bottle, so a better argument might be about what to do NOW rather than pine away for a game that really never was in all lifetimes here.


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #165 on: February 17, 2009, 11:18:05 AM »
You don't get multiple attempts at a golf shot while you're honing in on it. The conditions change from day to day. It's not an "everybody/ nobody, all or nothing" discussion.

I don't know how any of us alive today can truly understand what the game was like with those old clubs and balls on courses that were maintained quite primitively by today's standards.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #166 on: February 17, 2009, 11:25:17 AM »
I am 100% certain that had they been invented in his day, Old Tom would have used a range finder, titanium heads, graphite shafts, cavity backs, the hot ball, a 60 degree wedge, hybrids and even a long putter, and he'd probably have been willing to ride in a fiberglass horse....


 

At the risk of offending my good friend Melvyn, I fully suspect that not only would Old Tom be using all the new technology, he would proabably be manufacturing and selling it as well !

Not sure about the horse though......


Tom Huckaby

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #167 on: February 17, 2009, 11:48:54 AM »
A question for Melvyn, one that I simply can't get an understanding for:

Melvyn, you say:

Support each other just like the junkies your are. Stay in denial, it is you that is the ultimate looser – you are the ones who need their distance fix. Yet you think it helps your game. The distance genie is out of the bottle, but you just don’t want to put in back – but why – well that’s your business and you play with your toys the way you want. I’ll play the way it has been in my family for years. 

Perceptions and attacks aside, one simple question:  do you really think the genie CAN be put back in the bottle?

Because that is where I think we have the greatest disconnect, and misunderstanding.  I'd LOVE IT if the genie of distance information was put back in the bottle.  I'd LOVE IT if all distance information were removed from golf courses....then of course electronic devices for ascertaining such would also be necessarily banned... I'd LOVE IT if judgment of distance became a fundamental skill for this game we all love.

I just don't see a snowball's chance in hell for that happening.  And thus my arguments deal with a world in which such is readily available to all golfers.

So I ask:  do you see the genie going back in?  And if so, how is this going to occur?

TH




Melvyn Morrow

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #168 on: February 17, 2009, 12:27:25 PM »
Tom

I am surprised to see you adding to this topic, for someone who moans about this on going debate you are still happy to add your two pennyworth to it. Well good for you.

You work and play to your standards.

As for you not seeing or playing without yardages I expect this is true and would not have the impertinence or arrogance to say so, but clearly its one rule for you and another for me.

Lets me not advise you but tell you that my father and great uncles never used yardage/distance information as we have been discussing on this topic. My father was born in St Andrews and was very well accomplished golfer and swimmer, he taught me golf, so why did he never mention it to me or for that matter to my brother. For something that apparently, well according to you and your friends has been around for a couple of centuries, yet it never was mentioned to me and I have yet to uncover yardage books, old distance markers or anything that relates to this modern idea of yardage information.

Please tell me why they have not been found, why the reports in all the newspapers and magazines did not report this information or publish their own distance guide to give away to golfers way back in the 19th Century if it was so much part of the game then?  If there is evidence that they did exist then I will happily accept it but with all my searches I still have not uncovered one yardage book. That might be the reason why my father & uncles left out yardage in their teaching.   

As for superior, I don’t think I ever said that.  I believe my comment were that we just don’t need distance aids as each golfer has it within him/herself to eyeball the pin and select accordingly. I do not see anything superior in that as we all have that ability. I have said that I for one would feel it unfair to use outside aids and that I would be cheating myself.

Golf has changed over the years, because many want to make it easier,also to accommodate the climate, yet there are still those who play golf in the tropics in the conventional way – no carts etc – I have, my father, my brother as well.

Fine you want to play it your way please do so but to those who believe that golf should be played in the original way, let them do so without doubting or chuckling at their comments. This time Tom it’s you who are out of order, you just could not resist so decided to throw in your little remarks, but why? Actually I’m not interested, because I’m not going to continue this post.

Superior – no, that is in your mind because of some reason or other to assist your argument or distain. As I said how can it be superior if all golfers have the ability to play without aids.

What all of you have totally forgotten is that this is a Discussion Group, which in my view means it’s open to total honest debate – that means freedom to voice ones opinions even if it goes against the majority.

Have fun and enjoy your golf.

Melvyn


PS Tom, There is very little we cannot do if we all work together and want to achieve a certain goal, so as I believe in Man I must believe that we can.

It’s a question of understanding and accepting that there is a problem, before we can all move on to correct it. But can we call yardage a problem - that is the real question. Being totally honest I would say I feel that any outside information should not be allowed in the first place, but now its here all we can do in the short term is to encourage courses to remove all yardage/distance information and lets the individual golfer asset it over say a 6-12 month period.
But yes if there is a will there is certainly a way.


Tom Huckaby

Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #169 on: February 17, 2009, 12:51:41 PM »
Melvyn:

I added to this because I genuinely want to come to some resolution, and genuinely do remain curious and interested in your perspective.   Let's try to get past the slights and the like, shall we?

And we do seem to be making some progress.

So you do see this as a problem that needs to be fixed.

I somewhat sadly believe that very very few share this stance with you.

And as long as that is the case, well... sure where there's a will there's a way - I just don't see a will, and thus can't see a way.

Thus my preference is to live and let live, and try to deal with issues that can be fixed, where needed. 

Thank you for your answer in any case.  Fight the fight.

Tom Huckaby


Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #170 on: February 17, 2009, 01:16:32 PM »
Ok - Let's add getting rid of distance aids to the list of other improvements necessary to return golf to a more pure form:

1) No carts and no cart paths - walking only
2) No 460cc drivers - 250cc max club head
3) No crazy distance golf balls - not sure what the standard should be here
4) No long putters - the max club length is 55 inches
5) No distance aids on the course

Feel free to add.

I have chosen trying to get people to walk as the first step in returning to a more traditional game because I think, hope, it is the easiest to implement.

Not sure if we can get any traction on these items, but it is worth a try

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #171 on: February 17, 2009, 01:23:38 PM »
Rob...we need a return to sans-a-belt pants...and stiff collared shirts!
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2009, 01:31:28 PM »
To all the distance Luddites out there I pose this simple question:

When you play a par 3 (especially for the first time), do you reference the yardage for the hole on the scorecard or tee box and why?

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2009, 02:05:42 PM »
I am 100% certain that had they been invented in his day, Old Tom would have used a range finder, titanium heads, graphite shafts, cavity backs, the hot ball, a 60 degree wedge, hybrids and even a long putter, and he'd probably have been willing to ride in a fiberglass horse....


 

At the risk of offending my good friend Melvyn, I fully suspect that not only would Old Tom be using all the new technology, he would proabably be manufacturing and selling it as well !

Not sure about the horse though......



Borrowing from my old marketing text, I guess the question should be "was Old Tom and early-adopter?"

In reading this thread one thing kept popping back into my head.  Old Tom was a caddie, and from reading Tommy's Honour, my impression was he was a good one.  Why?

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Was Old Tom the Standard Bearer for Range-Finders?
« Reply #174 on: February 17, 2009, 02:37:49 PM »
Quote
I take back what I said about the range finder.  I think Old Tom would have abhored the range finder and the cheater line for retarding the mental acuity and judgment necessary to play the Game, but would have embraced B&I advances because B&I advances have been part of the Game for as long as there's been the Game-Dave Schmidt, AKA Shivas

Good for you Dave.  Gentlemen, mark this day on your calendars!  ;D

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

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