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JWinick

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Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« on: August 02, 2008, 08:43:51 PM »
Why do some architectural idealists on this website object to range finders and yardage markers?   What is so terrible with knowing your distance from the pin, or from potential hazards?   

If the object is to play your best and playing well = maximized enjoyment, than why the assault against range finders and yardage markers?  Professionals know their distances to the pin on nearly every single shot.   A range finder, in particular, merely levels the playing field.   It speeds play and promotes enjoyment.  If you let the caddy do it by his knowledge of  indecipherable sprinkle heads (i.e. Friar's Head), what's the difference? What if you get a bad caddy like I did today in a tournament?

I'm sure I will get slammed by the Luddites in this group, but I can't understand how distance knowledge negatively impacts your ability to interact with the architecture and nature.   

Dan King

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Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 08:54:34 PM »
It's yet another example of removing any of the mental part of the game, attempting to make the game only about the shots.

It's another attempt to make an inherently unfair game fair. It's another example of the Americanization of golf: If a pro gets yardage, then I'm entitled to yardage; If my opponent gets a good lie in the fairway, then I should also; If I hit as good of a shot as my playing partner, then I shouldn't end up in a blind bunker.

It's all part of making a beautiful game ugly.

Cheers,
Dan "The Luddite" King
Quote
The great Jack Nicklaus summed things up neatly during a charity match on the Old Course at St. Andrews wwhere he and I were playing against Ben Crenshaw and Glen Campbell. I asked him what he considered to be the most important factor to overcome in the game of golf. His reply, "It's an unfair game."
 --Sean Connery

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 09:02:00 PM »
Simply can't understand why it is ok to have a caddy give you distance and yet a range finder is frowned upon.  I just don't understand the logic.  Are yardage books OK?  Are yardages on sprinkler heads acceptable? Are GPS carts ok?  Oh, I guess not with this crowd.  I don't use a range finder but find nothing wrong with them.  Anything to speed up play is a positive.  Why should there be an advantage for those that use 'naatural' methods but technology is totally unacceptable.  In that case it is obvious that only hickories should be used.

Jon Nolan

Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 09:08:04 PM »
I don't get the speed up play argument.  I honestly have never felt a playing companion was wasting time due to pacing off yardages.  A million other things, yes.

I don't like range finders and I do like marked sprinkler heads.  I can't explain why.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 09:13:56 PM »
My two slowest rounds of the past year have been when paired with low handicappers - low single digits.  Marked every putt, looked at every angle, needed to walk off every distance no matter how far the nearst sprinkler head was, wanted yardage to the exact yard if not foot.  Found it most aggravatting as I enjoy playing golf without waiting.  .

The course I play most often is hilly.  Most use a GPS cart and yes it does speed play.  How can it not?  The yardage is right there.  No need to take more than a few seconds.  No need to look for a sprinkler head, to pace it off etc.  Yes it is technology but what isn't in the current world of golf?

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 09:19:11 PM »
Here are the five main positions, ranking from Luddite to Techie.

"You're on your own" - Luddite  
"Your caddy knows" - semi-Luddite  
Check the sprinkler head - neutral
Zap away! - Sophisticate
Rangefinder, GPS, whatever - Techie

I would argue that GPS is too far.  I'm not a fan of GPS in the carts.   It gives you too much information.  

Regarding pace of play, it does speed up pace play and quickens club selection.   The pro comparison is valid.   While the game may move towards bifurcation some day, there has always been an effort to state that pros and amateurs should play the game the same way.  I would argue that the rangefinder gives the amateur the same information the professional enjoys.

Bruce Leland

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Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 09:24:47 PM »
Just so I understand, the purists on this site all play courses where there are no yardage markers in the fairway whatsoever?  I think that's a bit unrealistic.  Growing up, those of us past the age of 40 probably played the game without yardage markers but if you played the game on the same course everyday you probably had the information at hand anyway through experience.

While I don't have a problem with course markings or rangefinder's, I do struggle with the advantages of current ball and club technology.  I believe Nicklaus had it right 10 years ago when he said they need to limit the COR on the clubs and dial back the ball.  400 yard drives define insanity in the game of golf.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 09:25:46 PM »
How is GPS in the cart different from a range finder? They both utilize the same technology, except one is hand held and the other is in a cart.  

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 09:26:08 PM »
A few rounds with carts equipped w/ GPS(everyone needs the cart driven next to their ball) or a group with only one rangefinder in the bunch(take one down, pass it around)will make the "speed up play" argument disappear.

I'm neutral.......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 09:30:27 PM »
Bruce..you are most accurate.  In my younger days I played two courses, one at which I caddied and the muni i played.  Knew the yardage on both and just let it rip....This arguement is really about technology or one would argue that no yardage should ever be provided.  No caddies, no yardage books, no sprinkler heads, no 150 markers, etc.  The only reason to be against range finders is that one objects to technology.  So as I said earlier play nothing but hickories or you are ruining the traditions of the game.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 09:34:40 PM »
Jwinick writes:
would argue that GPS is too far.  I'm not a fan of GPS in the carts.   It gives you too much information.

I fail to see the difference.

Regarding pace of play, it does speed up pace play and quickens club selection.

Do you have a url for that study? I sure would like to read it.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
I feel more strongly than ever about this. I would like the professional game freed of golf carts. Golf is a physical game: if we are playing competitive professional golf, we should walk. When I can't walk 18 holes, I'll pack it in.
 --Arnold Palmer

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 09:45:34 PM »
Bruce,

You raise an interesting point.   If people know their own course well, guests are at a big disadvantage.   Information asymmetry helps the host win a competitive match.   The generous host is so kind in sharing information to his guest.  So, I think there is a bias against these tools if one plays their own course nearly exclusively.

Dan:

GPS goes further.   It makes you a passive participant in a video game.  With a range finder, you still use your eyes and senses to take in the hole.   You're only getting basic, relevant information. 

I don't know of such a study, but it is logical.   With respect to people sharing one rangefinder, usually one person gunning a distance is sufficient for the whole group.   A slow round with people using rangefinders is a function of people taking the game very seriously and playing like tour players.   The rangefinder does not hurt in that case, these players would be walking off the yardage markers anyway.

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2008, 09:58:24 PM »
I can see it both ways.

I would consider myself pretty traditional when it comes to golf.  I love to walk vs. ride.  I love minimalism design, links golf, blade putters.  But, I just recently received at GPS unit as a gift and LOVE it.  I play faster and I no longer have to walk around looking for a sprinkler.  I am not sure I could ever go back.

However, it does take away some of the defenses of a course.  A well designed golf course will make you think, even fool you every now and then.  Is the stick up on the green?  Or is it back?  What do I need to hit to carry the waste bunker?  How much of the dogleg can I bite off safely?  Some of that is certainly taken away by range finders.

But, then, where exactly is THE LINE?  Oversized drivers?  Space technology in shafts and golf balls?  Belly putters?  I think each golfer has to determine where exactly is the line for themselves.  For some, zap away.  For others, the range finder is practically a crime.

Live and let live, I say.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2008, 11:38:06 PM »
Here are the five main positions, ranking from Luddite to Techie.

"You're on your own" - Luddite 
"Your caddy knows" - semi-Luddite 
Check the sprinkler head - neutral
Zap away! - Sophisticate
Rangefinder, GPS, whatever - Techie

I would argue that GPS is too far.  I'm not a fan of GPS in the carts.   It gives you too much information.   


I find your distinction between GPS in a cart and a rangefinder somewhat irrational.  Once you accept the mechanical determination of distance, what's the difference?

One thing I dislike about range finders and other mechanical distance finders is the emphasis on precise distance to the pin.  Distance to the best place for your shot to land is what's important, sometimes it's 50 yards short, it all depends.

Once you are focused in on 147 yards to the pin, that's the only number that really gets in your head.  It takes away from rational thought about the ground game and other factors that might help in club selection and shot planning.

If I know from a sprinkler head or yardage book that it's 147 to the center of the green, that's a whole different thing than knowing the precise distance to the flagstick.  The mechanical must be replaced by the feel and calculation of variables.

Am I making any sense or just blithering after a few glasses of a nice chardonnay across the street?  ???

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2008, 02:30:49 AM »
I side precisely with DK.  Using machines to do your thinking erodes an element of the game AND makes it a folly for archies to create visual deception.  But then I would be happy if there were no markers at all - including the tee.  Yardage connects the game far too much to par - which is another scam concept.  Though I have no idea why I would be a luddite.  If I am building a house fine - use the best machines and tools available.  But we are meant to be playing a game. 

In the end its all for nought.  We all have our own thresholds for what is acceptable and this inevitably leads to compromises or quitting the game.  As I more or less only play for drinks it isn't much of a bother for me to buy the latest and best equipment.  I think for many golfers its a sort of addictive compulsion to seek out better equipment.  Its almost as if the joy of researching/shopping is disconnected with the game itself.  It doesn't float my boat, but so what?  Live and let live, but if I were the KING of golf - things would be much different my friends.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2008, 03:03:18 AM »
All these things do is shorten the learning curve. In the old days members would get to know their courses. Today golfers jump from one to another. For enjoyment, the learning curve is shortened, the experience more enjoyable, the excuses fewer.

If the course is good, there will still be subtleties to figure out and overcome that no technology will help with; only the supercomputer above your shoulders.

And what about caddies? In the old days caddies provided all the info (or much of) the new technologies offer... and then some. How about reading greens? With the anti-tech stance, caddies should be mutes.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 03:05:48 AM by Tony Ristola »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2008, 03:30:55 AM »
JWinick writes:
GPS goes further.   It makes you a passive participant in a video game.  With a range finder, you still use your eyes and senses to take in the hole.   You're only getting basic, relevant information.

There must be a distinction in your head, but I sure don't get the difference. What info can you get from a cart mounted GPS that you can not get from a hand-held device?

I don't know of such a study, but it is logical.

It would have been very easy to do studies prior to legalizing these devices. Instead, the USGA decided to just make the claim they will speed up play without any data backing up their position.

These devices speed up play just like golf carts speed up play. Under optimal conditions, a golfer can play golf faster in a cart than walking. But carts and range finders are rarely used under optimal conditions.

A slow round with people using rangefinders is a function of people taking the game very seriously and playing like tour players.

I could of sworn earlier you were making the argument you should get to play the game just like the pros? I would assume that means you should be allowed to play just as slowly as they play. 

Tony Ristola writes:
And what about caddies? In the old days caddies provided all the info (or much of) the new technologies offer... and then some. How about reading greens? With the anti-tech stance, caddies should be mutes.

So would it be okay with you if you had a device that read the green for you? Told you about the strength of wind? If the argument is this is all the stuff the caddy used to do for a golfer, what would be wrong with a device that takes over all the traditional caddy functions?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
'The caddie will only drink the more if overpaid,' you say. Indeed! and to what good purpose do you apply the money you grudge to the poor? Is there something nobler in your gout and dyspepsia than in my caddie's red nose?
  --Sir Walter Simpson

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2008, 04:07:59 AM »
Dan: Caddies are human, and to err is human. Though experienced caddies not only got yardages and clubbing pretty accurate, they gave a whole plethora of info the first timer wouldn't know. Distance devices only give yardage... yardage guides provide a bit more. Yardage devices and guides can't account for elevation change very well. They can't take into account the lie you have; tight or flier. They can't account for the slope (up, down, sidehill and any combination thereof).

So...Yardage devices such and guides are fine. For everyday play lasers are fine. That's where I'd draw the line and where it is drawn.

Green reading device? No. If they produced one I wouldn't trust it. The equation is too complex. Slope, cut, moisture, how you'd attack (aggressive or passive) all way too much for some device to handle.

Wind, dew point, humidity, temperature, barometric pressure etc. No... not that they would assist much. How would you calculate wind speed when trees are blocking it? Or you're below the dunes and the wind is blowing like crazy up above?

On another note, I'd like to have the Tour clamp down on caddies signaling TV and other players what club their guy is hitting. They should be nailed 2 shots for every infraction. If TV wants to know, then signal after the fact.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 06:32:47 AM by Tony Ristola »

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2008, 07:03:16 AM »
Sean:
Par is a scam concept?   No markers at all?   I'm not sure where this coming from.   Hey, I appreciate and admire your passion for the architecture, but what about the game itself?   

I side precisely with DK.  Using machines to do your thinking erodes an element of the game AND makes it a folly for archies to create visual deception.  But then I would be happy if there were no markers at all - including the tee.  Yardage connects the game far too much to par - which is another scam concept.  Though I have no idea why I would be a luddite.  If I am building a house fine - use the best machines and tools available.  But we are meant to be playing a game. 


JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2008, 07:07:03 AM »
Dan:

Why shouldn't golf attempt to be fair?  Or seek to be fairer when at all possible?  I believe that is part of the mission of the game.  We all get bad breaks and bad bounces, but wouldn't you be frustrated if you overclubbed a pure 8-iron to a back pin location?   If you knew the distance, you'd have a makeable birdie putt.   

I understand the romantic, whimsical aspect of a bad break or two.   But, why promote that?

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2008, 07:22:01 AM »
We have removed our GPS from the carts.  The reason was to prevent "golfers" from driving their carts on the tees to get distance!  Plus they were annoying. We have carts so more people can enjoy this great game.  Please post a picture of Arnie on a Bay Hill buggie!

I just read somewhere a great Lee Trevino story.  Lee Trevino while playing a practice round for the Open asked his caddie "How far to the green?' to which the caddie answered "Five iron".  Finally frustrated after more replies Trevino proceeded to knock balls onto the green with every club in his bag, from the 3 iron to the putter and duly suggested to the Caddie that he should answer the question and never tell him what club to use.    I think I heard the same story about Christy O'Connor and Byron Nelson.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2008, 07:29:13 AM »
Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?

Precisely, but the real question should read why do you need to use them?
Do you not have that ability to judge distances? Has the old eye brain coordination failed you? I’ll go one step further, do you need a range finder in your car to judge distance and what about stopping the vehicle - or do you rely upon your own ability to see, compute then take the appropriate action. Let’s not forget that a car can kill, so currently if you are able to drive, why do you need artificial aids to play golf? 

When golf in its then modern form migrated out from Scotland in the late 1890’s there was no artificial aids. The USA opened its door to the game, people flocked to play the new game, considerable amounts of money were spent developing new courses, the era that became known as The Golden Age had begun. But no one was called Traditionalists or Luddites for playing golf the real way, the way it was imported into the USA. People just enjoyed the game, accepted the challenge and golf took off in a big way.

So what happened? It would appear that certain people around the end of WW2 decided to make life easier for themselves. Walking was certainly not for them (perhaps their view was that only the common people walk), so along came the cart or buggy. Novel idea, don’t let your legs do the walking use the cart, it also saves you from carrying a heavy set of club over your shoulder. (Again, perhaps only common people who can’t afford a caddy would be seen doing that). All done to make life easier, to play the game was and still is (in all Major competitions) a Walking game. So those who prefer to sit while playing golf have the impertinence to call those who play the game in its true form Luddites or old fashion traditionalists.

Note;  I understand that carts may be necessary to play the game in certain climate conditions and in mountain regions. But that is another debate altogether.

Range finders, yardage and GPS are simply artificial aids to help the Golfer.
Nothing more nothing less. To the average player they are just toys. Lets be honest, how many golfers can hit the ball the distance (to the nearest yard) proscribed on their Range Finder – my guess not many are that accurate or good, so what is the point. Yardage markers, GPS Range Finders etc, they are crutches to try and improve your golf which you just don’t need. You the golfer has it within yourself to judge distances, to walk the course, to spend time looking for that ball and of course the frustration of that lost ball – that’s golf, that’s how your father and his father before him played golf, perhaps the very reason you started in the first place. What traditions are you going to pass down to your children and grandchildren – the legacy of the cart, GPS  and range finder, which in truth has very little effect on your actual score but can take away the full enjoyment of the game and the day by missing the bigger picture and concentrating on the unimportant.

Have golfers who use all these modern aids/carts etc lost the will to use their brains, has golf become that frustrating that you need toys to distract you from the core game, because what ever else you throw at us Older Purists you are the ones moving away from the game of golf, the core reason for its popularity in the first place with its quirks and traditions. 

I would love to see all yardage and distance markers removed from all course. Those who play the same course on a regular basis may use trees, rock etc as a subconscious marker, but that is the human mind at work which is what actually drives us on in all things.

Just because others feel the need to use them to prop up their game, ask yourself the question, do I?


Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2008, 08:33:08 AM »
Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
 
Do you not have that ability to judge distances? Has the old eye brain coordination failed you? I’ll go one step further, do you need a range finder in your car to judge distance and what about stopping the vehicle - or do you rely upon your own ability to see, compute then take the appropriate action. Let’s not forget that a car can kill, so currently if you are able to drive, why do you need artificial aids to play golf? 


Melvyn, doesn't the speedometer, an aid, in the car help with this judgement?


I use a rangefinder a lot.

How does it help me?

Does it speed up play?

If I use it on approach shots, it will be used approximately 18 times in the round with a saving in the region of 10-30 seconds per shot over pacing out yardages, giving a saving of 3-9 minutes over 18 holes. This might equate more or less to 10 minutes saving in a fourball (again an approximation). A small saving but it won't turn 5 hour rounds into 4 hour rounds.

Does it lower my score?

No, the information that the pin is 147 yards away as opposed to 145 or 150 (which is readily available at nearly all courses), will not help me shoot a lower score.

Does it take away from the judgement of the shot?

Again, no, there are too many variables, wind, slope, green firmness, lie, temperature, humidity etc that require a lot more judgement then the distance.

No matter how much information a player has, the shot still has to be executed.

Does it overcome visual deceptions?

This is an interesting point, I find on occassions I'm still fooled by visuals, it is more experience of playing previous shots that helps me overcome visual deceptions.

Could I learn to judge distances without a rangefinder or yardage markers?

Yes, but I like the convenience of both.

Does it distract me from the playing of the game?

No.




There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2008, 09:08:30 AM »
This argument reminds me of the great debate I'd have w/ my college buddies after a long night of Coke and cookies.....Grizzly bear vs. silverback gorilla in a fight.  It'll never get settled.

Wise man once said, "hard to reach goal when you don't know where it is".

CPS

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Range Finders and Yardage Markers: Why the beef?
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2008, 09:11:29 AM »
Golf is not about gadgetry. Red-blooded amateurs have no need for it; on the contrary, it's rather embarrassing when viewing it's employment. Gadgets completely contravene what golf is all about. I'm not overly excited about yardage markers, either, but if I happen to twist my ankle on one, sure, I'll have a peek. They're not far off being useless, either, for there's never any guarantee of perfect contact between the ball and club. They heavily contribute to slow-play, as golfers wander from side to side of fairways trying to locate their positioning, prior to the calculus exam. More golfers would be better off figuring out how to visualise what 132 metres feels like, as opposed to 138 metres. It's precisely why keen golfers must play in Britain, to learn how to throw out the yardage book. There's no way to teach someone how to hit a "quiet" 250-yard six-iron down gale, factoring-in 50 yards of roll. When Greg Norman hit the shot of the tournament in the Open at Royal Birkdale a couple of weeks ago―that awesome “chipped” 5-iron from 125 yards―no-one can seriously think knowledge of the yardage had any influence of his execution. As it turned out, I guess Harrington's 2nd shot on the 71st was really the shot of the tourney.  

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