[Sean_A]

"5th hole, 395 yards; A modern day architect has many tricks up his sleeve in order to challenge the golfer. Some ways aren't so subtle like forced carries over water (by the way, there are no water hazards at Hidden Creek) and others are subtle, like creating depth perception problems. In the case of the bunkerless 5th, rather than cutting a bunker into the slope at the right front of the green, Coore & Crenshaw brought in piles of dirt and built a hazard that obscures much of the green. The catch here is that the 5th green is the second deepest green on the course at 48 yards and without a good view of the hole, the author imagines that good players wll struggle in gauging the right distance for their approach shots, especially to the back hole locations."

Below is a pic which brings Ran's description to life.



What is an archie to do if folks want to rob the thrill from the game?  Isn't it time we all take a look at why we took up golf? 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

As Tommy Armour once said, blind shots are only "blind" the first time you play them.  So, the only person you really fool with a folly like #5 ar Hidden Creek is the first time player who has neither a distance finder, nor sprinkler head markings, nor Kirby discs, nor 150 yards bushes, nor a yardage guide, nor a caddie, nor a friendly fellow competitor who can advise him about the amount of "dead ground" between the folly and the middle of the green.  Hitting the blind shot the first time IS one of the many fun things about golf, but what the game is really about is thinking about and executing golf shots.  When the shot is blind and you have no information about the location of the pin, your brain is largely neutered and you only get a fraction of the pleasure.  On the other hand, if you KNOW that you have (say) 163 to the pin, but your shot is obscured or otherwise camouflaged, your brain is stimulated and the total pleasure is enhanced.

Slainte

Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean

As Tommy Armour once said, blind shots are only "blind" the first time you play them.  So, the only person you really fool with a folly like #5 ar Hidden Creek is the first time player who has neither a distance finder, nor sprinkler head markings, nor Kirby discs, nor 150 yards bushes, nor a yardage guide, nor a caddie, nor a friendly fellow competitor who can advise him about the amount of "dead ground" between the folly and the middle of the green.  Hitting the blind shot the first time IS one of the many fun things about golf, but what the game is really about is thinking about and executing golf shots.  When the shot is blind and you have no information about the location of the pin, your brain is largely neutered and you only get a fraction of the pleasure.  On the other hand, if you KNOW that you have (say) 163 to the pin, but your shot is obscured or otherwise camouflaged, your brain is stimulated and the total pleasure is enhanced.

Slainte

Rich

Ah, Grasshopper, you forgot a few things.  One, the archie may have provided an option where the player can gain a view of the pin if he takes the risk on.  Two, Tommy Armour was wrong and has been every time you repeated his line.  A blind shot is always blind.  Experience helps, but anytime a guy plays an obscured/blind shot, there is the element of sensory deprivation which may effect the outcome of the shot.  This lack of sensory input means the player has to be a bit more savy.  Having said that, there are blind shots which are not terribly stimulating, but the best ones are.  Three, I agree that executing golf shots is what playing the game at the highest level is about.  However, this does not mean that the exact yardage to a hole has to be  given to a golfer for him to execute.   

Ciao 

[Steve Lang]

 
Blind shot yes, but sensible, most definitely..

tell me why I can pull a club on many approach shots before even getting to my ball.. regardless of whether its 93 or 99 yards..

and some cannot

[George Freeman]

Sean,

Is it safe to assume that you do not use any type of yardage aid when you play golf? (whether that is a range finder, caddie, sprinkler heads, 150-yard markers, scorecard, tee-markers, etc ,etc)

Cheers

George

[Matt Waterbury]

Sean,

Not sure what you are arguing against here. Are you saying that all yardage aids (lasers, sprinklers, cow skulls, caddies, etc.) should be done away with? Perhaps there are folks that think "eyeballing" shots is part of the test of golf. You are free to feel that way.

I, for one, think that the biggest difference between pros and amateurs is distance control, and that is the part of the game I work most on. Note: I'm not saying pros hit their 9i exactly 147 yards every time. I am saying pros can hit a 147 yard shot consistently with 6 different clubs. In order for me to learn that skill, I need to know how far away key architectural elements (and the flag, BTW) are.

I would argue that the shot in the picture is actually made more complicated when you have the distance. The conflict between what your eye sees and what the sprinkler head says is what will lead to a less than fully committed swing. I think that is what the archies intended.

Cheerio,
mjw

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

I forgot nothing, and understand everything.  You need to try harder, even if your goal is just to get past the larval stage....

[Chris Cupit]

Sean,

Totally agree that the beautiful hole pictured loses almost all relavence startegically with modern yardages.  As soon as a pro or excellent amateur knows his number and how far from the right edge of the green the hole is, it's a matter of a simple shot and the "deception" factor is non-existent.

Unfortunately, the "horse is way out of the barn" and golf will never go back to "eye-balling" days.  The ability to determine how far you were was a huge skill that is unneccesary now   Much of the ground game, "keep it in front of you", conservative stratgey is gone.  With exact yardages there is no need to play that way and I think that is one of the most fundamental changes in the way the game was played say prior to 1960.

BTW players have always tried to gain advantages when they could.  A player used to be able to employ a caddie and as many forecaddies as he could afford to help prevent lost balls and who could presumabley indicate to the player hazards and other obstacles that were "blind" to the player.

The Rules of golf now specifies that forecaddies are only employable by The Committee to avoid the situation of a player having this advantage due to wealth.

On tour some players had their caddies walk the course to determine hole locations prior to The Committee handing out hole location sheets.

I'd love to see a return to sight/memory only.  You or your caddie must only use info your senses can detect and/or your brain can remember--NOTHING written, shot, lasered etc....OR go ahead and say anything is fair game--allow books, lasers, wind devices--EVERYTHING.

ALL or NOTHING because this trying to split the baby in half stuff is nonsense.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Case against yardage aids, good question, I would go one step further, are we talking about golf as it was played for centuries or a new game based upon golf which allows all forms of aids.

Before going further I accept that there will be changes to clubs and balls as years go by to improve equipment reliability but certainly not for distance which, I believe should be firmly controlled. This has never really happened. Technology used to improve reliability of equipment but not distance, I happily endorse.

The introduction of Haskell changed the face or should I say the length of courses within a few years. Improved the reliability of the ball (minimising shatter/chipping), but alas it travelled further. No one in those days saw the consequences or understood the meaning of allowing the ball to travel longer distances. The game change overnight, poor golfers managed more distance. It was not until the course lengthened that some balance was gained. But at what cost, new longer courses, many old course abandoned as no more land available to expand. This was the start of evermore money being required to play and build courses.

To those who want their super clubs, Path finders GPS etc. etc., none of which I believe has been outlawed, go and enjoy you game. It’s your right and choice currently to play the game along these lines, but please don’t, just don’t tell me you are interested in GOLF or its future, you are just interested in your game.

I like many others believe that I don’t need anything more than my clubs/ball and scorecard. As for where I am on a course and to judge distance, nature provided me with a brain and eyes to work that out. If I screw it up, it’s my fault alone. To me the ultimate challenge is to using my brain and eyes, not some artificial aid, but hey guys, like you, I have the right to a choice.

A simple question, Do you think that in 10 years time after playing with all these aids, your game would have improved? Easy way to test that would be select a new course, play the first round without any aids then another with all your toys. Which would reflect your true score/ability?

Pro or amateur or aspiring Pro, whatever, enjoy your game but allow other to continue playing their real honest golf.

[Rich Goodale]

Fully agree, Chris.

Sean and Melvyn, while comfortably quirky, are really just being obstreperous.

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

A question Richard

When you started playing golf was it because you liked the
game as it was played or was it because of all the new aids
creeping in?

Obstreperous – how about being loyal to my original beliefs!!

[Rich Goodale]

Hi Melyvn

I started playing the game with cut off hickories probably before you were born, and the only new aid in those days were steel shafts, which I finally got when I was 22.  Regardless of what new aids you play with today, the game is still the same--hit it, find it, hit it again......  It's quaintly obstreperous to rail against yardage aids, but they've been here for all of my lifetime and they are not going to go away.  IMO, of course.

Cheers

rich

[Kirk Gill]

Yardage aids allow you to know exactly what you need to do, and to try and execute it.

There are golf course architects who attempt to do the same thing - show you exactly what you have to do, and then ask you to execute it.

Same thing?

[Richard Boult]

With or without a yardage device, most golfers are going to make a point to get the yardage to the hole. These course design features are not compromised by knowing the yardage. When what you see and what you know don't seem to match up, the architect has succeeded in introducing some level of doubt and uncertainty.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

‘hit it, find it, hit it again’ perhaps golf in a nutshell – all I am saying is that I can do that by just using my eyes and I am happier for it. My father never stopped to calculate yardage by using markers or any other means, he walked up to the ball, observed the ground, green and flag and surrounding area plus other players, all the time letting his brain and eyes advised him the choice of club and how to play the shot. That, to me is the only way to play golf.

But if you want, or feel you need aids to help your game – then they are not illegal, use them.

At your great age, I hope you enjoy your game. My father did and died on a golf course when 62 but his brother played until nearly 90.

PS A wise old man would keep his mobile on when he plays -  with   
      emergency services numbers on standby - at his age time is critical.
      Trust you are not that old but remember to charge the batteries!!   

[Dan King]

B,Richard writes:
When what you see and what you know don't seem to match up, the architect has succeeded in introducing some level of doubt and uncertainty.

Other than potentially hurting the pace of play, this would be my primary objection to yardage devices. In a case where your yardage doesn't match your visual perception, who are you going to believe? In the old days, when it was just 150 markers, kirby markers, sprinkler heads, yardage books, caddies, etc... you might doubt the yardage and rely on your visual perception. Or you would be conflicted which to believe. But now, with a device you carry with you and rely on constantly, you are going to ignore the architect's visual tricks and go with the yardage on your device. You don't have the uncertainty the architect tried to endow. The architects visual trick becomes less effective, and eventually golf will just be a bunch of clearly defined targets.

Cheers,
Dan King

Golf is deceptively simple, endlessly complicated. A child can play it well, and a grown man can never master it. Any single round if it is full of unexpected triumphs and seemingly perfect shots that end in disaster. It is almost a science, yet it is a puzzle without an answer. It is gratifying and tantalizing, precise and unpredictable. It requires complete concentration and total relaxation. It satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same time rewarding and maddening - and it is without a doubt the greatest game mankind has ever invented.
  --Robert Forgan

[rchesnut]

I agree with Matt....this issue has been settled a long time ago with yardage books, sprinkler heads, 150 markers, pin sheets ect.   You can't "hide" distance from a golfer determined to get it.  I've seen guys pace off 50, 80, 100 yards to get the exact distance to a flag.  Pros and their caddies walk the course and keep books with exact numbers.  The game has just evolved to the point where it's easier to get that precise number, but that hasn't dramatically changed the game. 

People are different...some like "feel" and are comfortable hitting based on what they see.  Others are more comfortable with the number.   Nothing wrong with either...you've still got to hit the shot.  And with elevation changes, wind and elements of visual confusion, even the precise number isn't that precise (how many times have you heard a golfer look at a sprinkler head and say 150!  It looks a lot further than that!)

It's also important for golf to do things to keep the game appealing for folks that aren't hard core golfers.  The number of golfers is declining, in part because it takes too long to play...and I think that on balance, yardage aids help pace of play. 

As a "purist," if I could eliminate one technological "advance" from the game of golf, it wouldn't be yardage aids...it would be golf carts for able bodied players.   

[Rich Goodale]

Melyvn

When we play I'll show you my combination Solar Powered GPS-WiFi-Defibrillator that also serves as a head cover.  It's dead cool.

Rich

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

Dead Cool

I bring along some garlic, wooden stake, a cross and as much silver as possible (for the beer, of course) – when did you guys get Sun tolerant?
 

[Jim_Kennedy]

 

..."The architects visual trick becomes less effective, and eventually golf will just be a bunch of clearly defined targets" - Dan King

Possibly, but anytime there is a conflict between your eyes and the given number, there is doubt.

Throw in wind and yardage aids have even less meaning.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Lets go one set further

Looking forward to the debate on the best Night Vision Goggles
to complete the pack of modern aids GPS, Path Finder etc., etc.
 
Whose is going to be the first to say ‘Don’t be ridiculous’ or are
we so into aids that you really want to know? Also looking forward
to the explanation why anyone would want one on a course. Perhaps
for those dark overcast days, maybe helps confirm the yardage as you
can't read the GPS or Path Finder in the dark?

What about body armour -  valid point because once you start hitting the distance you may be able to kill a hawk (with your first shot) or even hit that guy who moaned about your modern aids - a never ending story.   

Enjoy your game!

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

whilst agreeing with you that yardages have taken away some of suspence of the game and some the skill required. IMHO however, yardages are only of real assistance to players with 5-6 handicap and better, as higher handicappers don't usually have that sort of distance control on the course. All yardages have done for the average player is slow him down which is as good a reason to get rid of them as any.

[Brent Hutto]

All yardages have done for the average player is slow him down which is as good a reason to get rid of them as any.

But you can't get rid of players using yardage. The only question at hand is will you eliminate yardage aids and make them do it with yardage books and pacing or will you let them use things like posts, sprinklers, rangefinders, etc. that make it faster, easier and more accurate?

Once they've seen the city you can't keep them down on the farm.

[JSlonis]

All yardages have done for the average player is slow him down which is as good a reason to get rid of them as any.

It takes about 5 seconds to get a yardage with a Bushnell Pinseeker.  How is this slow?  I'm willing to bet that if there were no yardages on a golf course, the average player would take a lot longer than 5 seconds trying to figure out and guess how far he is away.

[C. Squier]

You have 2 options:

1.  Make EVERY yardage aid illegal.

2.  Make EVERY yardage aid legal.

You know how those sprinkler heads / bushes / posts / yardage books got their numbers?  They didn't dig out Old Tom Morris and have him guess how far it is to the green.  Instead, two guys with surveying equipment lasered exact yardages.  Again, a simple 150 yard stake and the newest rangefinder will yield the exact same results.    

Just because the eyes may play tricks on you doesn't mean that the markers are wrong.....that's why its called an optical illusion.  If you take a situation where your mind and yardage plate don't sync up, trust the plate.  The UV lights that are used to mark sprinkler heads don't care about principal nose bunkers.

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