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Garland Bayley

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Re: The Armchair Architecture Contest. And the Winner is...........
« Reply #100 on: March 25, 2009, 06:55:26 PM »
By quantify preponderance I meant, what percent reaches the threshold of preponderance? 10/18*100 doesn't reach that percent IMHO.

Also, I am curious about the mention of crowned by both you and Tom. We did not design greens, just specified their location approximately. Perhaps I should have mentioned it, but much of the time my intention was to have the green have a back to front slope from the hill on which it was located. I had no intention of having all those greens have a finished crowned form.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Armchair Architecture Contest. And the Winner is...........
« Reply #101 on: March 25, 2009, 08:14:09 PM »
By preponderance I meant the largest number of greens fit into that category. But the crowned thing is interesting. For the sake of this discussion I assumed that if the green was at the highest point on a slope then it would need to be crowned to look right.

For example, a green can be elevated but if it's in a saddle between two higher hills, it wouldn't need to be crowned to look right. But if a green is at the top of even a small slope, it would look terribly unnatural to make it's surface concave. In your example of having a back to front slope, that makes sense, but the green complex would still on balance be crowned even if the surface sloped predominantly in one direction.


With all of that said, I didn't mind having a number of elevated/(instead of crowned, I'll say 'at the top of the slope') greens. I did think you might have gone 2-3 greens too many that were of that configuration. I think a few more side-slope greens might have been good, and would have fit with your "gravity golf" concept. None of that is to say that I didn't like the preponderance  ;) of your holes. In fact the hole of yours that I chose for my "favorites" post is exactly the concept we've just been debating. (I hope to start posting my favorites tonight BTW)
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ian_L

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Re: The Armchair Architecture Contest. And the Winner is...........
« Reply #102 on: March 25, 2009, 08:38:51 PM »
Garland, I noticed that two or three of your par-3's were uphill to an elevated green.  Out of curiosity, why did you choose to do this?

Garland Bayley

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Re: The Armchair Architecture Contest. And the Winner is...........
« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2009, 11:52:06 AM »
Garland, I noticed that two or three of your par-3's were uphill to an elevated green.  Out of curiosity, why did you choose to do this?

I suppose familiarity. Two of the par 3s on my home course are configured thus. Also, I suppose some on here would recognize me as a complainer about modern design where there is a significant preponderance (my off the top of my head quantification >75%) of holes playing downhill. As a walker, I maintain this diminishes my enjoyment of the course. My home course is on a very small piece of land, so there was no choice. The tees had to be near the greens and as many holes had to play uphill as downhill. Finally, since I was eschewing bunkers at TEP National, I guess I could see the hazard of greens at a high point, and not feel compelled to surrond them by bunkers.

EDIT: My 4th green is where it is, because of the boundary line on the property. I wanted to take the 5th hole from there around the pond to the left, but the property boundary prevented it. The 4th would have played down to where the 5th tee is now, and the pond would have been a hazard behind it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 11:59:00 AM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay
« Reply #105 on: March 26, 2009, 08:51:52 PM »
I was planning on doing a big, long post with everyone’s holes in it, but I decided that individual posts would be more conducive to discussion. I’ll try not to do more than a couple per night. And I’ll post the reduced size aerials at the bottom. Ignore the white circles, those were from the esker discussion.


Okay to kick things off, on the heels of our ponderous preponderance discussion, it’s GBay’s 3rd hole. This is a shortish par 5 with no bunkers, lakes, or other artificial hazards. I felt like this hole contains the best of what “gravity golf” has to offer. Here is a look from behind the tee with Paddy Harrington showing us how to play it.





I won’t try to describe the method of play (Garland can do that) but the use of the contour is quite good in my opinion. The way the ridge in the landing area runs diagonally added with the diagonal direction of each of the forward teeing areas (technically they are ribbon-style tees) makes the tee shot seem very strategic, and roughly proportional in its difficulty with regard to where one tees off.


Below we have the view from behind the green looking back. This is a perfect example of a crowned/elevated green. What’s more, I think it is the ideal green for this hole. Without artificial hazards, and since the green is probably easily reachable for the better player, the green-site needs to be somewhat severe to challenge the better player.





Since most higher handicap players will com up short in 2 or even 3 shots, they’ll have a suitably challenging chip or pitch shot. For the low-handicap player, being even a little off in any direction could mean a very tough par since the long-iron approach will be coming in with some velocity. That velocity combined with gravity could feed the ball well away from the green.

Well, here I’ve gone on longer than I planned, and talked a little strategy as well (sorry Garland). Let’s see what you guys think.


Aerial (Hole 3 is lower-middle):



Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #106 on: March 26, 2009, 11:28:53 PM »
I’m not bumping Garland, but in an effort to keep moving, up next is Jim Colton’s Par 3 17th.

One of the judges made the criticism that Jim had too many redan-esque greens that angled away at 45 degrees. Whether that criticism is valid or not overall I don’t know, but it certainly isn’t true of this green. I believe that this was the only par 3 I chose as a “favorite”. I like it because from the tee it is something of a skyline green and the view behind, over the wide-open wetland area and the surrounding environs looks inspiring.






Again, I don’t want to overstep my bounds on strategy, but on this one you can really play the ball short and let that thing run onto the green, especially for a back hole location. The fronting bunkers as seen below serve to capture anyone who gets too greedy with an aerial approach to a back pin.






Jim, can you take us through your thought process on this hole? How did it come together, was it an early addition to your routing, or later? Did you contemplate the view at all?


Aerial (hole 17 is lower right):






Again, I’m not pre-empting Garland, no more new holes from me until tomorrow night at the earliest. Let the boys know what you think of 'em! ;)

Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ian_L

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #107 on: March 26, 2009, 11:47:39 PM »
I love both these holes.  As Charlie mentioned, that ridge on Garland's par-5 does a great job of dividing well-placed tee shots from the average shot.  I also imagine the green is blind from the left side of the fairway?

Jim's hole reminds me a bit of Pacific Dunes' 5th hole (although the details on PD's hole make it spectacular IMO).  One question for Jim: did you think about leaving the left side bunkerless?



Jim Colton

Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #108 on: March 27, 2009, 12:20:52 AM »
Thanks Charlie.  The 17th is named after the Snoop song 'Beautiful' which I think fits well.  As I mentioned in the hole by holes, this was actually the last hole that I built.  I had a similar par 3 that finished off to the right and tee off to the right of my 16th green, but it was completely blind when I actually looked at it in sketchup.  So I moved the green to the side of the hill, drew it up and was pleasantly surprised when I looked at it from ground level.  If nothing else, it's a good looking hole.

As far as the bunkers go, I really had no idea where/when/how many when it came to bunker placement, so I just drew em in and hoped for the best.  That back left bunker could be removed.  I guess I wanted the golfer to be able to use the slope to feed into the green, but not just any ol' shot that starts left to make it on the putting surface.

Again, because I really had no idea what I was doing, I ended up choosing green sites that were largely in flat spots on the topo, assuming that some shaping of the greens would occur.  I didn't have any idea how to stick a green on  a slope, for example, and make it work.  This one seemed to work, but it was the last hole that I worked on.  I am currently going back and re-working my routing to try to improve upon it, just for personal edification.  I hope to do a better job in utilizing the contours in both the fairways and the green sites.  If anybody has any recommendations or comments on the rest of my routing, I'd gladly appreciate the honest feedback.

Personally, I like my 15th hole for similar reasons, mostly because it looks good.  I will probably rework the fairway and the bunkering to make it better strategically, but I just love the green location and how it looks from the tee.  I think Yannick commented to put the green up and to the left but I wouldn't change it.  I think my 13th-17th stretch is pretty strong.  They look like they could be real golf holes, which is pretty good for a hack like me.  18 is probably cliche Petey Dye but it is what it is.


« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 12:31:31 AM by Jim Colton »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #109 on: March 27, 2009, 11:44:55 AM »
I measure the carry shown in Charlie's depiction of Padraig's drive to be approximately 330 yards. Unfortunately, Sketchup is not good a measuring. I rotated the view to be a more horizontal one so that I could pick the contour exactly for measuring the drive, and Sketchup measured from back tee to green to be 316 yards. I planned most of my routing for drives of 280 for the back tees, 230 from the middle tees, and 180 from the front tees. A drive of 280 from the back tees on this hole would leave you in the rough on the face of the ridge. 300 should get you to the top of the ridge in the rough. Rotate that drive a little left into the fairway, and to my estimation the green is blind from there. Even though the green is reachable in two, I wanted it to be a difficult second shot.

I did not design any of my holes for the tour pros. So Padraig and friends can eat the hole up with their big bombs and short iron seconds.

This was my favorite par 5 as it used gravity golf hazards to challenge the second shot for those trying to reach in two, and some blindness for the second for those playing it as a three shotter. Even for playing as a three shotter, the green is on a raised location to add some gravity golf difficulty.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2009, 01:39:12 PM »
I think you're measuring one ridge too far Garland. I have paddy at 250 yards and he's not all the way back. So I agree with you that it's not the tour-length player you should design for.

That said, this was one of my favorite, if not my absolute favorite, par 5s in the competition. As you said, a decent drive will likely run down to the left and the view for the second (if going for it in two) would be blocked by that ridge that's up there about 330. A good trade-off for having a chance to go for it in two, if you ask me. It also appears that the view to the landing area if playing it as a 3-shotter is not obscured so much.

As for the green, it has nice roll-offs in pretty much all directions, though the putting surface is predominantly back to front (or so it looks).

Does anyone find that this hole is similar to the 8th at Crystal Downs? I've only seen the hole in photos.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2009, 02:12:37 PM »
I see if I look at your golfer that you clearly are not measuring from the tips. So I think I measured to the same ridge, just from a different starting point.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2009, 02:34:21 PM »
RE: JC's 17th

Charlie,

You realize that if it is a skyline green, you won't be seeing the water behind it, don't you? Also, it looks pretty much like an inverse Redan to me.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2009, 03:21:59 PM »
Charlie,

Can you let us download the other sketchup files so we can fly around the other design?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #114 on: March 27, 2009, 05:09:52 PM »
Sure, why not. I'll try to get to that tonight.


RE the skyline/view thing: Why you hasslin' me! Actually I'd say the green is skyline, but you can see the view to right and beyond.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #115 on: March 27, 2009, 05:36:14 PM »
Sorry Charlie,

Ummm ... something about tuna goes here. E.g., I'm gon tuna try to be better in the future.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Norbert P

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2009, 05:42:27 PM »
"You can tune a piano but you can't tune a fish."       Unk
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2009, 05:49:28 PM »
I'm just joshin' you Garland. But I will take a tuna sandwich.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Armchair Arch Contest. My favs...up first: GBay. On deck: J(ay)-C.
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2009, 08:13:24 PM »
Here is a link for the contestants files if you wish to download them.

http://cid-f73fd6728c175582.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Entries

Charlie
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

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My next favorite is Dave Stringer’s 7th hole. It is a nice par 4 that doglegs to the right and down the hill. It’s 260 to the inside corner of the dogleg, so if you can hit it there with a fade, you’ll run down the hill. I have to say that without the trees, there is not much to prevent you from bombing it straight toward the green.

Behind the Tee:




I wish I could say that I had a lot of strategery in mind when choosing this hole, but I chose it first on how nicely it fit the lay of the land. That said, I think the bunkering could be a bit more natural looking. But that may just be a function of the sketchup tools.


Behind the Green:




One thing you’ll find is that the majority (or preponderance if you will) of my favorites occupy the same, or similar areas on the map. I didn’t plan it that way, but I’ve noticed it. Is that because that area is the best part of the property, or because I lack imagination?


Aerial (the hole is lower middle):



Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Charlie,

Are you into quirk? How did you like Jim's 2/3 Dell Hole? When I get a chance, I want to download his sketchup file and do some flying around that one.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Charlie,

I agree. The density of possible great holes was higher in that part of the property.
The esker area was the next best area.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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I think it is useful to see what one judge had to say about Jim's 17th.
Quote
Hole no. 17 is a great looking par 3 with what should be a nice backdrop and interesting ground features.  Looks like balls could be played on the ground on the left side of the green and feed down to the putting surface.
...
Best Holes:    Hole no. 7 - Par 4
      Hole no. 13 - Par 4
Hole no. 17 - Par 3
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Charlie Goerges

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I liked Jim's dell hole. I thought the angle he used gave some latitude for making it a blind shot or one with good visibility depending on the hole location and the tee used.

I'm glad to see I'm not just weird for choosing too many holes in one area. I do like quirk, and I appreciate it much more since discovering GCA than I ever did before. Since quirk is not always very strategic, it fits in nicely with my general lack of strategic thinking.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Ian_L

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lack of strategic thinking.

Charlie, looking at the holes you've chosen and other comments on our courses, I don't believe you. ;)

I love this latest hole, by the way.  A fade is strongly favored, but others can still get around the hole without too much trouble.  If it were me, I would do away with the left fairway bunkers and keep that all as fairway to let the golfers themselves decide the best route to the hole.  Might not be as artistic, though...