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George Pazin

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Get to know Tim Gerrish is underway!
« on: September 23, 2009, 05:47:32 PM »
I haven't had a chance to follow up with Tim since he was kind enough to volunteer to help out early last week, but as of now, I think he's on for tomorrow.

Tim is an associate with Geoff Cornish, and has worked with Brian Silva as well.

Mungeam Cornish Golf Design

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As I indicated earlier, the tentative plan is to do one industry guy and one "regular" golfer (I know none of us on here are regular... :)) each week.

A hearty thank you to earlier participants:

Jeff Brauer

Kyle Harris

Mike Young

Anthony Nysse

Jim Franklin

Phillip Young
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 10:22:52 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Carl Nichols

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Re: Starting Thurs, 9/24 - Get to know Tim Gerrish
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 06:11:53 PM »
Tim:

1.  Of the three courses in Simsbury, CT, designed by Mr. Cornish -- Simsbury Farms, Hopmeadow CC, and Cliffside -- which is your favorite?  Why?

2.  Were you involved in the work that Mungeam Cornish did at Ambrosiano GC in Milan, Italy?  If so, what was it like to work on a project in Italy?

Jay Cox

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Re: Starting Thurs, 9/24 - Get to know Tim Gerrish
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 06:22:28 PM »
Tim,
Thanks for volunteering for the hot seat.  Here are a few question from someone who grew up a few minutes away from Sassamon Trace.  Sadly I was off to college before it opened.  It looks like it would have been a great place to learn to play.

What courses have you worked on?
What was your favorite project and why?
What changes are you making to the 13th at George Wright?  Is there any other work at George Wright in the works?  How much potential do you think the course has?
What are your thoughts on the relationship between reclamation projects (landfills etc.) and the future of GCA?
How would you define a links style course?

Jay

Richard Choi

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Re: Starting Thurs, 9/24 - Get to know Tim Gerrish
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 06:53:17 PM »
Hi Tim,

I just have one question.

What is the single most mis-understood or under-rated feature of a golf course when it comes to design?

Thanks!

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Starting Thurs, 9/24 - Get to know Tim Gerrish
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 06:57:51 PM »
Hi Tim,

Were you involved with the restoration at the CC of New Bedford? If so, did you attempt to achieve a unified look with the two different 9's, or use a different strategy for the Park holes and the Ross holes?

Thanks
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Starting Thurs, 9/24 - Get to know Tim Gerrish
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2009, 09:26:18 AM »
Tim,
Mr. Cornish just had his 95th b'day. How was the party? Did all the candles set off any smoke alarms?  ;D

What are coffee breaks like at your Shop? I can imagine that some of the stories GC could tell would be of the utmost interest.

Why is every hole at Simsbury Farms a dog leg left?  ;D
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 11:32:17 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

George Pazin

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Sorry, but Tim has informed me he has been called out of town and requested we do his thread next week. I'll line up a replacement shortly.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

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Sorry I haven't been available to introduce more posters - work this week has been crazy and my computer died on Monday.

At any rate, I hope Tim will be available tomorrow or even today to start fielding questions. When my computer died, I lost a bunch of email contacts, so if anyone sees this and knows Tim, please contact him and alert him. I will try to dig up my contact info for him by other means.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Gerrish

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Gang,

Yes, I'm in the office today, most likely out tomorrow afternoon and Friday.  But will see!

Tim Gerrish

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Carl asked:

1.  Of the three courses in Simsbury, CT, designed by Mr. Cornish -- Simsbury Farms, Hopmeadow CC, and Cliffside -- which is your favorite?  Why?

Though my wife is from Simsbury, I have spent very little time there.  I'd vote for Simsbury Farms being the municipal course. 


2.  Were you involved in the work that Mungeam Cornish did at Ambrosiano GC in Milan, Italy?  If so, what was it like to work on a project in Italy?

Unfortunately, it was before my tenure here.  We have had two international courses reach concept stage to either go on hold or die.  One was in Thailand.  That one was moving well and government sponsored, when a tsunami hit and there weer other priorities. 

Tim Gerrish

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Jay asked:

Thanks for volunteering for the hot seat.  Here are a few question from someone who grew up a few minutes away from Sassamon Trace.  Sadly I was off to college before it opened.  It looks like it would have been a great place to learn to play.

What courses have you worked on?  Everything coming out of CSM and MCGD over the last 11 years.  For Brian Silva's courses I handled planing, permitting stuff and construction documents.  He took the projects from there.  I made occasional visits to the courses in our neighborhood, especially Black Rock and Renaissance.  Same for Mark Mungeam's courses.  Both are great mentors and are two very different people.  Principally they play the same game though.  My courses include Sassamon, Highfields of Grafton, Forekicks, Swanson Pines and Butter Brook plus a bunch of renovation stuff.

What was your favorite project and why?  Butter Brook in Westford, MA, since it had a very interesting site, great contractor and the best clients.  The Kennedy's were there everyday and have even taken over greenkeeping.  At one point there was four Kennedy's working on the project, with only two related.  Should we expect less in Massachusetts!?!

What changes are you making to the 13th at George Wright?  We are adding a drainage swale or ditch to the left side of the hole to improve soil conditions.  The area floods after almost every rain.  We again are working with a tight budget.  We are also rebuilding the tees, greenside bunker and expanding the green slightly (no change to original surface).

 Is there any other work at George Wright in the works?  How much potential do you think the course has?  Course has great bones.  it "just" needs some trees removed, bunkers re-built and it would shin very brightly in the Massachusetts golf world.  The superintendent Len Curtain has done wonders over the last few years.  We did a master plan about 8 years ago that is servicing as a template for small projects.   

What are your thoughts on the relationship between reclamation projects (landfills etc.) and the future of GCA?  It has great potential since there is a good relationship between derelict land and urban areas.  You usually don't have to travel very far!  Unfortunately, the landfill courses being built are high end (Granite Links and Bayonne).  We need a few more that are $40 to play if we really want people to play the game. 

How would you define a links style course? Highland Links in Truro, MA.  Courses built on well drained soil, grassed with fescues and bents, and random winds.  Throw in some gentle rolling terrain.  Water is not essential; think Sand Hills.  No water on the course either, except a playable burn/ditch.  What fun is it if you can't recover?!

I will always put Sassamon on a special shelf because it was the first course I worked on (did some work with the Meadow's of Peabody, but had a lot of help from Mark) and for what we did for the budget.  I had just finished my Master's Thesis on Landfill golf courses, using Sassamon as the example and then took the project from planning, thought permitting and construction.  Minimalism is the new thing, but Sassamon was a true minimal project.  We had no money, a road contractor(some golf experience but not a golf course contractor) and the limitations (or opportunities!) that a landfill provides.  I'm glad that they are hanging in there being an executive course (a par 5 and 5 par 3s).  We need more courses like Sassamon to feed the pipe line. 

I live in Providence, RI and like to get over to Buttonhole.  I'm actually meeting with one of my daughter's teachers this evening to discuss getting some children other there from their school.

You should try working with Brian.  This seat is pretty mild!


Tim Gerrish

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Richard,

What is the single most mis-understood or under-rated feature of a golf course when it comes to design?

The ground contours and how they can be used as a hazard.  But in our society the contours are just not as sexy/visual as a bunker/ditch/stream/pond/tree. If it is not sensational, then it doesn't make a magazine cover.  I think a golf writer told me that once.  I agree that the contours don't have the eye appeal as other features and we have to keep in mind both the ability of the majority of golfers and a courses function as entertainment.

Tim Gerrish

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Pete asked:

Were you involved with the restoration at the CC of New Bedford? Yes, I made some visits, but Mark was the main guy.

If so, did you attempt to achieve a unified look with the two different 9's, or use a different strategy for the Park holes and the Ross holes?  The scope was fairly small at New Bedford.  We rebuilt a green (softened the contour) and re-built a tee complex or two.  Maybe a handful of bunkers.  By default we would try and unify a style.  There have been a lot of 9 hole additions built in the past that did not make any effort to match the style of the original nine.  I alsways scratch my head, unless the Club wants to go in a different direction.  We did that at The Connecticut Golf Club.  They wanted to go with a more classic New England bunker style and get away from the steep sand faces. 

Tim Gerrish

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Jim asked:

Mr. Cornish just had his 95th b'day. How was the party? Did all the candles set off any smoke alarms?  Grin  The smoke alarm actually went off at least two times.  No kidding.  We are all looking forward to getting together in 5 more years.  Mr. C is doing great and is still "as sharp as a tack" 

What are coffee breaks like at your Shop? I can imagine that some of the stories GC could tell would be of the utmost interest.  Mr. C lives in Amherst and the office is in Uxbridge (1.5 hours apart).  Brian lives on the road and occasionally in NH/FL.  I live in RI and Mark in MA.  We are a fairly disjointed group.  I talk to Mr. C every few weeks and yes he does have some great stories, especially of the Winter School program at the Stockbridge School (Umass).  They use to have many of the classic architects up to lecture in the class.  I'm told that once Donald Ross was caught in Amherst after a big snow storm and had to spend a couple days with the class.  Can you imagine that today?!  I have Brian in occasionally and he has yet to be stuck in a snow storm.  I teach the Winter School program golf course design/construction course now and am actually resurrecting a full time class for full time student this fall.

We at times take putting breaks.  There are some amazing breaks in the old floor! 


Why is every hole at Simsbury Farms a dog leg left? Send a letter to Mr. C.  Maybe he hit a draw?!

George Pazin

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Thanks, Tim.

What got you interested in golf?

Golf course architecture?

How'd you come across golfclubatlas?

Sorry to hear about the Thai course, on many different levels, of course - was it directly on the ocean and physically affected, or was it simply postponed due to better priorities?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil_the_Author

Tim,

What do you think will be Mr. Cornish's legacy in course design? As he is also a scholar in the history of golf course architecture, how would you describe his personal library and archives? Do you find yourself wanting to spend time in them?

Jaeger Kovich

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Tim!

What designer past/present has influenced you the most? (My guess by the portrait over your desk...Ross?)

What 3 courses anywhere in the world would you most like to visit/play/study?

What is your favorite book? What is your favorite gca book?

What is your view on template holes?

How is your "new" filing system working out for you?


... I owe you guys a call, I'll try to get a hold of you before the end of the week... Jaeger

Cliff Hamm

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Tim... I want to congratulate you on continuing the tradition of building quality courses that are affordable.  Mr. Cornish will never get enough credit for what he did for public golf in New England...Did you have anything to do with the 'renovation' of Ct. National?  What a great job and the owners are doing a great job in keeping prices low. ...Butter Brook is another wonderful lay out.  My only major criticism is the extremely long walk from the 9th green to 10th tee.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Starting Thurs, 9/24 - Get to know Tim Gerrish
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2009, 09:01:00 PM »
Why is every hole at Simsbury Farms a dog leg left?  ;D
Jim: 
I think there are a few straight holes and one semi dogleg right!

In all seriousness, Simsbury Farms is a terrific muni.  It has (or at least had) two short par 4's that made you think about the driver vs. layup choice; a pretty good risk-reward par 5; and a great (and diverse) set of par 3's.  Sure it has its issues -- 10 and 11 are practically identical to 1 and 2, and it was never the best-conditioned course -- but it's a terrific course for the residents of Simsbury. 

Tim Gerrish

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George asked:

What got you interested in golf? I played in high school, but not for a school team.  Up in Maine it really isn't worth having a school team since the seasons don't align well with the school year and black flies.  I played with a bunch of fellow ball players.  None of us were very good, but we had fun

Golf course architecture? I'll give my dad some credit here.  After graduating high school we went to play this new course called Sugerloaf.  I had played most of the local public courses around central and western Maine, but really nothing like this.  I put two and two together and realized that someone designed this stuff.  In retrospect, I had played a lot of cool, old courses by Stiles and Ross, Wawenock, Bath, Brunswick, Wilson Lake, Kezar Lake and Poland Springs, but did not appreciate it like playing the "new" course.  When back in Maine now I try to play the same old courses.

How'd you come across golfclubatlas?  Probably been perusing it since the first year.  Not sure who pointed it out.  I'll give an old friend some credit, Brian Johnson.  Being a single guy he had some extra time to discover these sort of things.  I met Ran while at the Black Creek (Chattanooga) opening many years ago.  Could that actually be 9 years ago?  Yikes.  We played Black Creek and Lookout Mtn. and was supposed to play The Honors, but skipped it for another round at Black Creek.

Sorry to hear about the Thai course, on many different levels, of course - was it directly on the ocean and physically affected, or was it simply postponed due to better priorities?  It was directly on the ocean, but up near Bangkok.  I don't know if I would say better priorities, but the government had to spend their money to get hard hit areas back up to speed.

Tim Gerrish

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Philip asked:

What do you think will be Mr. Cornish's legacy in course design? As the person who really brought golf architecture into prominence within the golf community.  From what I've seen, there wasn't too many people talking about golf course architects prior to publishing of "The Golf Course" in 1981.  We shouldn't forget Mr Jones Sr., but things really picked up after it was published.  GolfDigest started its best new course list in 1983 with Mr. Whitten (who co-authored the "The Golf Course" with Mr. C).

I say the golf community, because outside of GCA there are very few people, even out of golfers, that know who designed the courses they play.  We also have to keep in mind that 90% of the population does not golf and have no idea what a golf course architect is from personal experience. [/i]

As he is also a scholar in the history of golf course architecture, how would you describe his personal library and archives?  He has copies of every book, article, newspaper clipping, advertisement, etc. ever published on the subject.  Or at least it seems!  Besides a historian, I would categorize him as less an architect or player and more a turf and soil guy.  Mr. C. had been a superintendent, and was hired to find find topsoil for Stanley Thompson at Capilano, then was construction superintendent at Highland Links in Cape Breton.  In my opinion he focused much more on course aesthetics or eye appeal, and maintenance than strategy.  With the way a majority of golfers play, he was correct.  I wonder if he had placed more emphasis on strategy would he have more highly regarded courses?  A lot of people in New England sure do love his courses.  I met a guy last night that couldn't stop talking about them.

Do you find yourself wanting to spend time in them? I wish I had more time to visit and go through the files.  Maybe this winter I'll spend an afternoon digging.  We have a lot of old files here, but only the projects after 1985 or so.  That would be the fun thing to do is go through the plan files from the early 50's on. 

Tim Gerrish

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Jeager,  How are you doing? You should know the answers to these questions already?!

What designer past/present has influenced you the most? (My guess by the portrait over your desk...Ross?)  Ross (by default here in New England), Raynor and Stiles.  Most recently interested Mackenzie (with visit to Cypress) and Tom Simpson.  Thomas wasn't such a bad guy either, but I'm not into rose hybridization as much as him. 

What 3 courses anywhere in the world would you most like to visit/play/study?  Yikes.  3...  1. Sunningdale and/or Huntercombe.  Heathland style and gets me back to the UK.  2. Royal Melbourne. Another Mackenzie and gets me to Australia.  3. Bandon, Pacific, Trails and Old CB. Good experience and have never been to the northwest.

What is your favorite book?  Split between the current book the girls and I are reading, Usborne City Search book last night and mine, a history of the Navy Seals.  If you ask me today I should have tried to be a seal.  You can't beat a government job in a recession.  Free housing, heath care and did I mention exercise.

What is your favorite gca book? Thomas' "Golf Course Architecture in America"

What is your view on template holes? If done well, they are great.  What I find most enlightening is how CB, Raynor and even Banks took the templates and fit them in the routing, and tied them into the surrounds.  Which template holes did they use, where is the routing, etc. 

How is your "new" filing system working out for you?  Awesome, thank you!  Now only 1/2 the files are missing!!!


Tim Gerrish

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Cliff,

Mr. Cornish will never get enough credit for what he did for public golf in New England...Did you have anything to do with the 'renovation' of Ct. National?  What a great job and the owners are doing a great job in keeping prices low.

Yes, I worked with Mark from conceptual through construction.  Ct Nat was interesting since we really just changed the framing.  That may be the most trees I've flagged for removal on an existing course.  We really widened the corridors of play.  Mounding was added to define the corridors and grassed with fescues.  Maybe in another year the fescues will be mature.  Only the 9th and 15th holes have new greens (built only from our plans with limited to no on site involvement unfortunately). 

...Butter Brook is another wonderful lay out.  My only major criticism is the extremely long walk from the 9th green to 10th tee.  The long way was supposed to be the 10th hole.  But I wouldn't trade the walk for the 13th hole! 

Cliff Hamm

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Cliff,

Mr. Cornish will never get enough credit for what he did for public golf in New England...Did you have anything to do with the 'renovation' of Ct. National?  What a great job and the owners are doing a great job in keeping prices low.

Yes, I worked with Mark from conceptual through construction.  Ct Nat was interesting since we really just changed the framing.  That may be the most trees I've flagged for removal on an existing course.  We really widened the corridors of play.  Mounding was added to define the corridors and grassed with fescues.  Maybe in another year the fescues will be mature.  Only the 9th and 15th holes have new greens (built only from our plans with limited to no on site involvement unfortunately). 

...Butter Brook is another wonderful lay out.  My only major criticism is the extremely long walk from the 9th green to 10th tee.  The long way was supposed to be the 10th hole.  But I wouldn't trade the walk for the 13th hole! 

Interesting about the greens.  The second and third are excellent.  The 17th could use some work.  Too flat and small....Anyway, what are your thoughts on the 8th?  Perhaps one of the more 'controversial' holes I have played:





The first pic is from the tee on this short, very downhill par 4.  I believe the yardage is 280 or so but plays much shorter.  Clearly driveable, but with danger.  The 'smart' play is a medium iron out to the right with a pitch across the water.  The real trouble is if you are left.  The green is very quick and downhill to the water.  If you are on the hillside the water is very much in play.  One of the more devilish, short par 4's I have played. 

Tim Gerrish

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Re: Get to know Tim Gerrish is underway!
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 12:18:41 PM »
At first I thought it should be a par 3 after we eliminate the greenside puddle.  Its not my favorite hole out there besides the view.

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