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George Pazin

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Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« on: September 07, 2009, 02:32:56 PM »
I think it's best I start the thread the day before, to alert anyone interested.

Kyle Harris has been a valuable contributing member of this site for awhile. I'll let him share his background, but I can summarize it with the following:

Penn State, golf, Penn State, agronomy, Penn State...

 :)

I had the good fortune of joining Kyle for dinner a few years ago - hopefully I can have the good fortune of teeing it up with him one of these days.

So think up some questions for young Kyle, on anything from golf to Penn State to Ayn Ra...well, maybe we better save that last thing for someone truly contentious, such as yours truly.

-----

On Deck: Mike Young
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

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Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2009, 02:47:42 PM »
Didn't Kyle win the covetted "golf dork white belt" at Mike Young's hosted Dixie Cup a couple of years ago.  I was a fan of his posts, even before snatching up that prized golf trophy.  He always has some interesting posts and his enthusiasm is irrepressible. 

Kyle, are you still in Florida and do you see yourself staying there long term?  You seem like you are such a natural to return to Happy Valley land.  Where can I get one of those Joe Pa masks?  If I ever get to Penn State for an away Wisconsin football game and golf, I promise to wear that mask playing the 18th hole if Kyle plays, win or loose!!!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2009, 08:31:06 PM »
Golf for me started on a bit of a lark. I thought the concept of a High School golf team was the most asinine thing I had conceived at that point (it was a sheltered childhood), so naturally I gave it a go. Shot 72 for my first nine holes at our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club.

I think I behaved myself well and that's how I made the team. By my sophomore year I was on the tail end of the Varsity Squad and my Junior/Senior Years were spent as #1/2 Varsity. Seeing as my high school is in the Philadelphia area, we got to play some pretty great golf courses capped by Huntingdon Valley CC. I was exposed, very early, to some quality architecture from Flynn (Huntingdon Valley, Doylestown), Hurdzan/Fry (Jericho), Rees Jones (Lookaway), Alex Findlay (Llanerch CC) and the general golf aura that surrounds the Philadelphia District.

I played competitive golf very early on, as well, and many of my peers have played in top flight amateur events, including the US Am.

I went to Penn State for PGM in 2001 and stayed in the program through 2003, before leaving and transferring to DeVry since my father taught there and the education would be free. I remained in the professional apprentice program until 2005.

On the same day I met Tom Paul in person, I also was introduced to Scott Anderson, superintendent at Huntingdon Valley. He offered me weekend work to see if I liked the business and I did - returning the next season as a first year intern. It was rough and I had much to learn. Scott and I didn't along too well at first and I had already planned to move to Florida in the winter to work at Mountain Lake.

My two years in Florida saw significant professional and personal growth, and despite a rough ending to a committed relationship I was able to advance my career in Turf significantly to earn another chance to work for Scott at Huntingdon Valley in August of 2008. This time around I was much more prepared for the rigors of the business and have spent the past year on Scott's professional staff as Spray Technician, and learning the ropes of Scott's unique program.

Starting September 30th, I will be pursuing formal education in Turf at Rutgers University.

Golf architecture, however, is really at the heart of my motivation. I first discovered there was more to the game then hitting a ball with a stick on the 7th Hole at Huntingdon Valley in 1999 when I was faced with a shot that was not merely a distance thing. The heavy slope from right to left and the need to place the ball on the right trajectory at the right distance in order to hold the fairway and set up a viable approach appealed to most of my ideals for fun and interest in a game.

I was hooked. My senior year project in High School was about Golf Architecture, and the Road Hole specifically.

I fell in love with the White Course at PSU when I realized that the greens were unlike anything I had putted on before and that there was the obvious hand of a master underneath the years of neglect.

I'll be taking notes tomorrow over the course of my day which includes work in the morning and a round of golf at Huntingdon Valley. I'll also respond to any questions about me.

My other interests include: Civil War History (once gave tours at Gettysburg for a summer job several lifetimes ago), Music (I've played piano since Kindergarten), Penn State Football, traveling - especially linking the travel to finding Donald Ross, Tillinghast or some other "Johnny Appleseed" golf architect in some forgotten corner of the US.

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 08:38:13 PM »
I'm never good at these things and always forget something.

I'm an Eagle Scout and still active in our local council as an OA Chapter Adviser and Asst. Scoutmaster. I do enjoy camping, but it's been ages since I've gone. I believe in the Scouting program for youth above most other activities -  including caddying, though I caddied all through high school.

I also study Railroad history, especially that of the PA Coal Region (Reading, Lehigh Valley, Pennsy). I'm a wargamer and prefer cardboard operational level games.

Dick,

Yes, I did win the coveted White Belt award - dare I say before white belts came back in style!

TEPaul

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 08:38:41 PM »
I've known Kyle Harris for something like 3-4 years now and have gotten to know him much better in the last few years.

The deal with this guy, in my opinion, IS, he is way too smart for his own good, but depending on whether one thinks that's a problem or even a benefit.  ::)

In my life, and specifically with golf and architecture, I've had maybe one or two what I call "Blue Thunder" moments or realizations. Kyle Harris seems to have them all the time!  ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 09:00:25 PM »
Kyle - I love reading about people who love what they do. And in the long run, that passion will be, I think, the only thing that matters, and the only thing that will lead to success. (Facts are way over-rated; that's what books are for.)

And just remember - any old fart who gives you grief for your brashness and impatience and know-it-all attitude was probably EXACTLY the same way when he was young. (That idea sort of works the same way as the advice given to nervous young stage actors, namely, to imagine everyone in the audience as not wearing any clothes. It works pretty well I'm told, except in the case of exceptionally attractive red heads...)

Peter

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 09:05:28 PM »
Peter,

I think one of the shortcomings of this sort of site is that the media we are discussing (Golf Courses) is not fit to be described by words or even pictures.

How does one actually adequate describe the feeling achieved when a shot is executed well (like the Redan shot)? Nervousness, satisfaction, etc. all seem to fall short. They have no context without there actually being the context of being there.

I become increasingly frustrated with my photos and descriptions because they aren't actually describing the sheer brilliance or categorization of the experience. For months now, I've tried to describe just what the journey from the 1st tee to the 5th tee at Jeffersonville is actually like but I can't get it. You'd just have to play it with me.

One more thought: I think a most important area to critique a golf course is in how the green to tee walks mesh with the holes immediately before and after.

TEPaul

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 09:06:07 PM »
"And just remember - any old fart who gives you grief for your brashness and impatience and know-it-all attitude was probably EXACTLY the same way when he was young."


PeterP:

Look my friend, I'm old now and I've known forever those that you describe as "old farts." Believe me, when they were young, or at any time, frankly, not a one of them ever had the "outside the box" bent and mentality that Kyle Harris does!!

BUT, not to make this thread into some giddy paean, some of Kyle's ideas truly do need to be scrutinized and critiqued honestly even if it may seem harsh from time to time. His thread on Rules 26 and 27 I believe is one of those times and examples. In his exuberance to create "temptation" in golf architecture and in play he just has to realize what the true and far-flung potential Rules ramifications to his "proposal" really are.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 09:12:14 PM by TEPaul »

mike_malone

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Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 09:06:59 PM »
Kyle,

  Could you please offer some specific (  saleable ) reasons for removing the new bunkers at Rolling Green?
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 09:14:40 PM »
"Kyle,

  Could you please offer some specific (  saleable ) reasons for removing the new bunkers at Rolling Green?"


Malone:

Are you available on Friday night about two weeks hence? I have a nice diner I'd like to take you to. Wayne will be joining us.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 09:29:40 PM »
Kyle,
I still have the belt and need to get it to you.
Wish we could have met up last week when in Philly.
But now I find we have so much in common...Eagle Scout(have you joined the NESA), piano...my mother was a piano teacher also, white belts....and the Dork thing.....and babes are always chasing us...
OK...my first question for you to explain to these guys who is Slim Spurling....I really enjoyed my time with Scott a few years ago and found his take interesting....it seems to work....
But I still have my Slim Spurling pocket ring.....
Second question...you have now worked both south and north grasses.....choose a favorite....


"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 09:42:12 PM »
Kyle can you tell us how it is that you always dress better than Jordan Wall?
Also please explain why Penn State would easily put up more than 50 more points than Washington State in a football game if they were to meet this season.
How do you maintain such a humble demeanor when in fact you are far more good looking than Jordan Wall?
The greens at Washington State's new course are extremely flat and boring. Please explain to Jordan that it is time he packed up and transferred to Penn State to see real University golf courses.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

TEPaul

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 09:54:27 PM »
"OK...my first question for you to explain to these guys who is Slim Spurling...."


Don't go there Mikey, at least not at this time and with these people. That question might be bigger than all of us and might be better put to Obama or the CIA or the NSA rather than Kyle Harris or Scott Anderson.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 09:57:51 PM »
Kyle,
Few more questions....

Do you wear a white spray suit?
Do any of the chemical companies give free pocket protectors and if so how many have you acquired and from which companies?
Do you text more than you call and how fast r u on the typing text messages....
Are you mac or PC?


"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 10:02:23 PM »
"OK...my first question for you to explain to these guys who is Slim Spurling...."


Don't go there Mikey, at least not at this time and with these people. That question might be bigger than all of us and might be better put to Obama or the CIA or the NSA rather than Kyle Harris or Scott Anderson.

But it is interesting and it could consume the day...or they could go to www.slimsuniverse.com    ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 10:02:44 PM »
Kyle,
Few more questions....

Do you wear a white spray suit?
Do any of the chemical companies give free pocket protectors and if so how many have you acquired and from which companies?
Do you text more than you call and how fast r u on the typing text messages....
Are you mac or PC?




Yes, I have. Once I got doused in chemical at Mountain Lake and just wore the white spray suit....
My pocket protector collection is museum worthy. Floratine holds the current high count.
I used to text way more than I should have. My texts r0x0r.
Neither, I'm a old Vaxstation running a late 80s build of VMS ;)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 10:06:11 PM »
Kyle,
Few more questions....

Do you wear a white spray suit?
Do any of the chemical companies give free pocket protectors and if so how many have you acquired and from which companies?
Do you text more than you call and how fast r u on the typing text messages....
Are you mac or PC?




Yes, I have. Once I got doused in chemical at Mountain Lake and just wore the white spray suit....
My pocket protector collection is museum worthy. Floratine holds the current high count.
I used to text way more than I should have. My texts r0x0r.
Neither, I'm a old Vaxstation running a late 80s build of VMS ;)

OK dude you lost me at  r0x0r  and then the vaxstation stuff is way out there....that shit is 100% pure dork....you win...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 10:09:42 PM »
r0x0r:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

Vaxstation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_VAX (My father worked for Digital Equipment/Compaq for over a decade). Ken Olsen's biography is a rather interesting read.

I WOULD like to talk golf too ;)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 10:15:10 PM by Kyle Harris »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 10:19:15 PM »
He's fibbing actually.  Last December he upgraded from his VAXStation to a DEC Alpha running OSF/1.  ;)  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 10:26:18 PM »
r0x0r:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet

Vaxstation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_VAX (My father worked for Digital Equipment/Compaq for over a decade). Ken Olsen's biography is a rather interesting read.

I WOULD like to talk golf too ;)
Kyle,
Did you see the question I asked re grasses in the south and the North....I was being serious.....
And heres some more....for my own info....which spray rigs have you been using and which do you prefer?
As for courses and architecture......IMHO you have chosen the correct path for entering GCA moreso than landscape architecture(no disrespect intended for LAR)...do you intend to try to work some construction?  And should I assume you know some autocad etc and are playing with it?
And since spending more time than the normal guy on a Raynor and now a Flynn....which is your favorite?  Why?

Oh...I found it..r0x0r b0x0rz - 1 definition - To rock the boxers or ones underwear. When something is really awesome. ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2009, 10:48:57 PM »
Mike,

Obviously they both have their plusses and minuses. Tif419 makes for an excellent fairway, as does Penntrio blend we use at HVCC. I'm not overly fond of the ultradwarves (at least TifEagle, TifDrawf, etc.) but I've putted Miniverde at Dunedin and it makes for a wonderful surface with supposedly less disease issues. Paspalum doesn't seem to be worth the effort as I've sprayed more fungicide in 3 weeks on newly sprigged paspalum than I did in 3 months of TifEagle at Mountain Lake.

For lower budget places, I'm a fan of straight up Rye Grass, it makes a fine surface. I also feel the thin varieties of Fescue are well-suited to firm and fast conditions as they don't immediately grab the golf ball the way Rye rough does.

Sprayers I've used:
Toro 175
SmithCo Spraystar 1000
John Deere/SDI 225 Gallon
300 Gallon two behind attached to a Metrac 3000.

For greens? The Toro 175 or the SmithCo's take the cake. The SmithCo is by far the most versatile and easily serviced I've used as the Toro 175 could be a hassle to clean if it ever got clogged. Same with spot spraying.

The 300 gallon tow behind is perfect for fairways and large areas.

I've haven't much thought of my next step toward GCA as I'm keen to finish this aspect of my education first, so I see myself for the next 5 years or so staying at an operating golf course as an Assistant Superintendent. There is an appeal, to me, in finding a neglected old golf course of the Ross, Tillinghast or Flynn vintage and restoring it over a 5-10 year span, but we'll have to see how the market shakes out. Construction is an option, especially if Kelly Moran's project ever gets back on the ground at Heritage Creek, which is right down the road. I do diddle with AutoCAD though it's been over a year.

Flynn or Raynor? Flynn, to date, as I've seen his very best up close and personal for sometime now. It's neck and neck with Huntingdon Valley, Rolling Green and Lancaster being my favorite Flynn depending on my mood for the day. Mountain Lake is the only Raynor I've been on, but I do enjoy it very much.

Flynn was quite adept at fooling the golfer's eye both aesthetically and playing wise. I've never had golf holes confound me the way some of Flynn's holes have - both in level of comfort (I'm just getting comfortable our opener at Huntingdon Valley - and it's been almost 10 years!). Flynn seems to make golfers aim well away from the point of comfort in approached to the green - take our sixth for example. The hook lie in the fairway pulls the golfer's aim right to an area that collects shots that are hit just a hair too much right. The golfer is therefore forced to aim further downhill than instinct should dictate.

I like how Flynn turned golf course construction into a craft. Ever look at some of his built up slopes? He always finds a natural contour with which to match the slope and blend it. This makes the golf course "feel" more connected to the ground. Stand on our 3rd green and look back to the tees. They're benched into the hillside, but each slope coming off the tee down the hill is parallel and blended into the hillside. They even match the constructed bunker on the right side of the 2nd fairway! This seems to really be gentle on the golfer's eye and allows the other features of the golf course to draw attention away from the unnaturally flat teeing areas. I'm more and more amazed at how much of Huntingdon Valley was constructed, but doesn't appear to be so at all.

Raynor has his positives too, with no real negatives. The use of angles and straight edges is appealing to me as I am fascinated by the concept of parallels in golf architecture. The 2nd hole at Mountain Lake has some of the most well-integrated hazards I've seen since the green is a perfect square that is attack at an oblique due to the orientation of the tees with the fairway. The bunkers fit right up against the straight edge of the green placing a further demand on the golfer to respect both the variable distance of the bunker caused by the oblique, as well as the proximity to the green. Raynor also seemed quite adept, at Mountain Lake at least, in turning 80 yards of fairway into a much smaller target. The 6th hole is a prime example as there exists no indication of the proper line to take off the tee over the pond to the Wiiiiiide fairway. The fairway shows over 100 yards of width from the tee, and I may have hit it 25% of the time. Incredible use of angles, IMO.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 10:53:44 PM »
Kyle is pretty good at cup locations as well.

Mike Benham

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Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2009, 01:12:44 AM »

... Music (I've played piano since Kindergarten) ...



G E N E S I S ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Kyle Harris

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2009, 04:41:18 AM »
Kyle is pretty good at cup locations as well.

Tiger was on the receiving end of the first GCA tag-team ace. He canned his first shot on Mountain Lake's Biarritz to a hole I set earlier that morning. I actually set the hole based on where I hit my shot the night previous, and yes, it was on the back tier.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Get to know Kyle Harris, starting tomorrow (Tues, 9/8)
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2009, 07:08:41 AM »
Could you give more specific information about the PGM program?

Also, to answer your question:

"How does one actually adequate describe the feeling achieved when a shot is executed well (like the Redan shot)?"

Think simple... If you hit it - "Holy Shit!" If your opponent hits it "AH Shit!"

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