[Kevin Pallier]

I did Scott - there was only me and the maintenance crews out there the time I visited. Needless to say it was in pristine condition.

[Michael Taylor]

Thanks for the review Kevin.

What was the 18th hole at GN? Is the course private or public? Exclusive?

Also in regards to PV's short course, did you take any pics? I'd love to see a walkthrough of the short courses (if anyone can point me in the direction of one, let me know).

Thanks,

Pup

[Ron Csigo]

Pup,

Galloway National is private and very exclusive.  With regard to the 18th hole at GN, it is a long, dogleg right par 4 that has a lot of waste area bunkering throughout.  A very difficult test.  GN is without a doubt one of the toughest golf courses in New Jersey.  I've included the link to Galloway National's website below so that you can take a tour of the course.   

http://www.gallowaynationalgolf.com/

[Michael Taylor]

Thank you Ron.

Kevin, what are your thoughts re: 11? It seems to me that the water hazard might lead to a pretty mundane hole, because it could force many people to lay up, rather than giving them a genuine chance to knock it on in 2. Does the risk outweigh the reward?

Pup

[Ian Dalzell]

To those who asked . . .

Bob Rittberger's course record 64 was in a Pro-Am Invitational tournament at the club on June 20, 2006.  He did indeed play from the Championship tees, which at the time tipped out at 6,879 yards (the course has since been lengthened to 7,023 yards with new championship tees on holes 2, 8, 17 and 18).  He actually started his round on hole #9 in a shotgun start and finished up on the drivable par-4 8th hole by hitting his drive to within inches of the cup, tapping in for an eagle 2!!

My guess is that record may stand for some time, although we have a US Open qualifier next spring so maybe someone will come out and blister the course  . . . . calling Pat Mucci or Archie Struthers

Ian

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin, what are your thoughts re: 11? It seems to me that the water hazard might lead to a pretty mundane hole, because it could force many people to lay up, rather than giving them a genuine chance to knock it on in 2. Does the risk outweigh the reward?

Pup

Michael

GN 11 is somewhat loosely similar in style to the old 14th at The Lakes. From the right hand bunker in the second shot it's about 150 yds to the green. I think it could probably be a better hole if there was a bit more land between the water and the green to encourage players to go for it. That and remove the front left bunker.

With regard to PVGC (Short) course I did take pics - to give you a better feel the vast majority of the holes are similar to many of the approach shots on the main course. It's an interesting place I must say.

[Kevin Pallier]

I thought it would be appropriate to combine in my penultimate review - two Flynn layouts a few hours from one another in Pennsylvania:
- Rolling Green
- Lancaster

Rolling Green (RG) is a delightful member’s course that I saw on a terrible day out weather wise but even it couldn’t hide the lovely architecture of this impressive Flynn layout. RG has a great set of P3’s – as a collection up with some of the best I saw whilst I was in the USA and they have such wonderful variety that a golfer would certainly hold their head high if they could Par all four during a day out.

RG is an apt name for a golf course if ever I’ve seen one - as there are so many changes in elevation I was “buggered” by the end of my walk around it. I experienced the heaviest rain on my trip whilst there - that was so bad - it forced the closure of the course. I am very gracious that my host was willing to slog it around in the wet for a few hours with me and RG is obviously one that has enough challenges to certainly test the better golfers. I could see that this is a course that has undergone some renovation surgery and the routing of Flynn moves nicely around the terrain.

RG#8


Lancaster (LCC) is also a great course that Joe Bausch recently reviewed on GCA (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44507.0/) I saw LCC on the same day as RG and again my host was willing to tour the course with me in the rain to which I am deeply indebted. [My wife has always said we at GCA are a passionate bunch  ]. Unlike RG - Flynn’s P4’s stood out for mine at LCC and looked to be a stern test particularly with the many changes in terrain forcing the golfer up and down some heavy topography changes. That’s not to say that LCC’s P3’s aren’t good it’s just that its P4’s seemed like a stronger and better collection.

Take the 4th as an example



It’s interesting how Flynn has used water/lateral hazards differently at both sites. At RG he uses some off the drive to test one’s decision making (ie: 7 / 8 / 12) whereas at LCC he uses them moreso around the setting of greensites. There are a few holes at LCC where a green is fronted or flanked by water: 4-7 plus 12 spring to mind. It shows Flynn’s versatility as a designer to incorporate natural features into his designs though I could not help but notice a somewhat “replication style” of design of a few holes at both courses. They had an eerie similarity about them.

For P3’s - take the 8th at LCC and 14th at RG as one example. Both are long P3’s - across a valley to a slightly uphill and angled green. They play at 203yds and 200yds respectively and are both protected by a bunker front and left by a similar series of shaped bunkers. One can play a club that runs up to the green with a steep fallaway over the back. Both are very strong yet somewhat very similar “replica” styled holes.

Shots from the green looking back to the tee – highlighting the similarity

RG#14


LCC#8


The tee shot at 8 LCC shows the shot ahead of you



For P4’s - take the 16th at LCC and 12th at RG as another example though I am led to believe that Flynn’s original design at LCC was somewhat slightly different which has since been modified. That said, the terrain changes are somewhat similar even though the LCC hole doglegs left and RG’s right. Both are medium uphill P4’s – that are heavily bunkered. They play at 343yds and 355yds respectively and are bunkered both on the inside and outside of the dogleg by a series of bunkers and have a small green on a ridge of sorts.

RG#12 (Tee)


RG#12 (Green)


LCC#16 (Tee)


LCC#16 (Green)



I was very impressed by Flynn’s work and wouldn’t mind exploring more of his designs if I ever got the opportunity to do so. Obviously, I was fortunate to see some of this at his famed Shinnecock Hills redesign and also at Atlantic CCC as well - though the later has undergone some well documented rework over the years. Maybe he is an architect that deserves more publicity and kudos than he gets ?

RG#4

[Rory Connaughton]

Kevin

   Thanks for posting.  I think your observation that there are similarities between LCC and RG is accurate.  There are also striking similarities between LCC RG and Lehigh.  I don't think they replicate one another but at various points on each it is obvious that they are siblings.  LCC 8 & 16 and RG 14 and 12 are very similar (though 16 LCC is not a Flynn original and did not come into existence until the 1960's, the hole played straight away to a tiny green perched on top of a small bluff) and share some similarity with 1 at Philly CC which could be inspired by 12 at PVGC (Tom Paul?).  Certainly when faced with almost identical topographical features at 8 LCC and RG 14, a very similar solution was used (though I do wonder whether the near identical bridges is what really links the holes :-)).
Where I think you see the greatest similarity between RG, LCC and Lehigh is not in the replication of holes but in the fact that for most water carries, Flynn provides fairway short of the carry so that they shorter hitter can opt to lay up.  Its hard for me to imagine that this is a design characteristic unique to Flynn but with creeks so prevalent on those courses, it really leaps out.

[Dan Herrmann]

Kevin,
You wrote, "Maybe he (Flynn) is an architect that deserves more publicity and kudos than he gets ?"  IMHO, Philly is a Flynn town, and his work is certainly appreciated here, if not nationally.

For an even more interesting study, I suggest a comparison of LCC to RG and Lehigh.  They're all fantastic golf courses with Flynn's signature all over them, but they're distinct and each special in their own way.

[mike_malone]

 Kevin,

   I truly believe Rolling Green MUST be played to be appreciated. While it has visual appeal as you walk it and the variety can be seen, only when you play it do you feel the constant uneven lies,the flow of the routing, the calculations needed to adapt to the elevation changes, and the recovery shots so artfully designed in by Mr. Flynn. We have recovered most of the intended design features. Now , all that is left is refinement and removal of some misdirected additions.

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin

   Thanks for posting.  I think your observation that there are similarities between LCC and RG is accurate.  There are also striking similarities between LCC RG and Lehigh. 

Thanks Rory - if I ever get back to Pa. I would hope to try and see Lehigh as well. It was well worth the effort to get up to LCCC after RG and made for a big day out as I nearly missed making it in time for my lodging that night. I'm glad I made the journey on someone's steadfast insistance to do so.

Kevin,
You wrote, "Maybe he (Flynn) is an architect that deserves more publicity and kudos than he gets ?"  IMHO, Philly is a Flynn town, and his work is certainly appreciated here, if not nationally.

Dan

I was talking more from a complete outsider POV. I really was impressed with Flynn's work hence the hope to see more of it.

Kevin,

   I truly believe Rolling Green MUST be played to be appreciated. While it has visual appeal as you walk it and the variety can be seen, only when you play it do you feel the constant uneven lies,the flow of the routing, the calculations needed to adapt to the elevation changes, and the recovery shots so artfully designed in by Mr. Flynn. We have recovered most of the intended design features. Now , all that is left is refinement and removal of some misdirected additions.

Mayday

Well - a certain few inches of water put pay to that intention. 

[Dan Herrmann]

I'd also love to see how a course like Cherry Hills compares to the MidAtlantic-Flynn designs - in person, of course

[Rory Connaughton]

Kevin, your effort that ugly day is to be commended.  Not sure I would have gotten out of bed let alone spend time walking around RG and LCC in a heavy downpour.  Many thanks for a great series of write ups and photos. 

[mike_malone]

 As I stood by #16 green on Sunday at Aronimink someone pointed at my RG logo and said "they should have played this tournament there instead of here". I asked him "what makes you say that?" He said he had caddied for someone in the USAM Qualifier held at RG and both he and his player loved it. It really is silly to rank courses when they are so close in quality.

    I do take umbrage to Kevin calling RG a "member's course". That is why I say one needs to play the course. I have always said LCC has the best set of 4's of the Flynn's I have played. But, my personal favorite kind of hole that determines my attitude about a course is the par three. On that account RG can compete with virtually any course.

[Dan Herrmann]

Flynn did build wonderful par 3's.  I've always thought the 3's at Flynn's Woodcrest have been somewhat overlooked.

RG #3 is a devilish par 3, isn't it!  But I still can't get my acrophobic self to walk across that RG #14 bridge

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You "take umbrage" that Kevin called RG a "member's course."

Why the offense ?

The tagline seems perfectly appropriate to me. One would not confuse RG with the likes of a Oakmont or Winged Foot / West. In fairness, I see Winged Foot / East as a solid "member's course" that plays-off wel against the big brother West Course.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Isn't "member's course" a bit of GCA shorthand for a course that  plays just fine for the average guy, but really is too short for serious competitions?

I don't see Rolling Green in that light at all, nor Lancaster.

Both play much longer than their card yardage due to the number of significantly uphill and elevated greensites.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mike,
Amen - RG and Lancaster are plenty enough for any golfer.  I can't wait to see how Lancaster treats the ladies at the '15 Open.

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

    Actually I don't take "umbrage" to anything on here. I was just referring to the point Cirba made. It means a nonchampionship course. Now , it may not be appropriate for a tour event but any other championship could easily be held there. LCC , PCC,HVCC , and Lehigh are the same.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mayday

I didn't mean to infer that slant on things - and in hindsight probably should have removed same as I for one would love to see a Tournament there. It's a delightful course all the same 

[Kevin Pallier]

I finish my reviews of my Final Frontier trip with the mercurial Merion. Apologies in advance re: the quality of my photos as it rained so much that I nearly lost my camera in the process of taking those here.

Without wanting to upset the “GCA Merion experts” - from a complete outsider POV with regards to Merion (MN) - I was absolutely “blown away” by the superb use of strategic design and angles on such a small site. It reminded me of a hillier version of Kingston Heath with some sublime bunkering, amazing short P4’s and wonderful P3’s offset with some real brutes particularly towards the end of one’s round. This is a course I could gladly play for the rest of my days.

The greensites aren’t overly large but had enough contours and internal movement to test even the best putters. It will be interesting to see how the professional fare around the layout in a few years time with the 2013 US Open but with the recent success of the Walker Cup is anything to go by - the professionals will be well and truly challenged around MN with length being the only question mark for mine.

I love how the routing constantly changes terrain and direction. I’ve read elsewhere where the famed Herbert Warren Wind described MN as a tale of three Acts: Drama (1-6 demanding holes), Comedy (7-13 short precision holes) and Tragedy (14-18 punishing holes). I think it is an apt description of what you are presented with - as MN really tests the skills of a golfer.

I also adore the rich golfing history that is associated with Merion incl. Hogan’s iconic one iron, Bobby Jones’s amazing Grand Slam victory, Trevino’s duel with Nicklaus, Graham’s heroics etc Some say the venue has a lot to do with the staging of history – MN is no exception.

The charming old clubhouse only adds to the appeal and whilst I experienced “a day only for ducks” with regard to the heavy rain that forced even the wicker baskets indoors – my time at Merion was a golfer’s delight and an appropriate way to end my Final Frontier chapters.

Holes I noted:

1st = (P4: 350 yds) is one of the best starting holes I’ve seen. Teeing of right in front of the clubhouse will test the nerves of any golfer and the hole progressively moves ever so slightly to the right. It plays harder than the yardage suggests with no fewer than 13 bunkers ready to punish the wayward shot.



3rd = (P3: 219yds) I am led to believe this hole plays even longer in the Walker Cup but was a long iron for me from the forward tees into this wickedly deceptive green..



5th = (P4: 504yds) is one of my favourite holes at MN. The hole swings to the left and an ever-present stream snakes its way all the way up the left hand side to the green. The slight tilt in the fairway is mirrored moreso at the green itself. With a front left pin placement one could easily putt it downhill off into the water.





7th = (P4: 345yds) is a lovely short P4 to a plateau green guarded by an OOB fence right and a large bunker left



11th = (P4: 367yds) the site of Booby Jone’s famous final hole victory to complete his remarkable Grand Slam. Playing this hole sent shivers down my spine and Cobb’s Creek is an ever-present threat on the approach.



17th = (P3: 246yds) provides a memorable walk down a flight of stairs then back uphill to this very difficult hole set in the quarry area.



18th = (P4: 505yds) is a taxing hole to finish a round and one can only dream of returning one day to such hallowed turf.



I have covered of some of the other courses I saw and thoughts on my trip in the following group of threads:

- The USA Final Frontier
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40921.0.html

- NY Courses
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42687.0.html

- California Courses
Monterey
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43368.0.html

San Francisco
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43587.0.html

LA
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43727.0.html

- Bandon Courses
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42827.0.html


A big thankyou to all here on GCA with whom I met and shared some memorable moments with. I’ve enjoyed revisiting them again in putting these photo threads together – I hope you have enjoyed them as well. I look forward to returning the favour whenever I can one day and also seeing you “down under” at some stage.

Cheers
KP

[Ash Towe]

Kevin,

Thanks for the great overage of your fantastic trip.  It was wonderful to share your experiences via this site and your photos.

Hope to see you again soon.

[Dustin Knight]

I could not agree more Ash, a wonderful write up of what must have been the tour of a lifetime!

Ash,

I hope all is well in NZ and that you both had a wondeful time on the cruise after we shared a round together earlier this year.

Cheers
Dustin

[Dan Herrmann]

Kevin - Great job on the writeups!

[mike_malone]

 Kevin,

    It was great fun to spend the morning with you despite the weather. Your photo tour has been wonderful. It is amazing that a guy from the "Land of Oz " has seen more great courses in the MidAtlantic part of the U.S. than 99%+ of all avid architecture junkies living in this region.

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