Educate me on golf in England

[Mac Plumart]

Okay, on the get to know me thread golf in England came up.  In my circle of non-gca golfing buddies, no one ever talks about going to England to golf.  Ireland and Scotland, yes.  England, no.  It has been brought to my attention that the marketing efforts of Scotland and Ireland relative to golf are more intense than England's.  Hence, the general lack of knowledge regarding the great golf available in England.

If those in the know wouldn't mind, hit me with the absolute "must plays" in England and a few hidden gems.  The more detail and description the better, of course.  But if all you have time for is to drop a name, you know I'll do the leg work to educate myself.

Thanks in advance, this is certainly a weak spot in my knowledge base.

[Anthony Gray]

  The ocean views.

[jeffwarne]

Okay, on the get to know me thread golf in England came up.  In my circle of non-gca golfing buddies, no one ever talks about going to England to golf.  Ireland and Scotland, yes.  England, no.  It has been brought to my attention that the marketing efforts of Scotland and Ireland relative to golf are more intense than England's.  Hence, the general lack of knowledge regarding the great golf available in England.

If those in the know wouldn't mind, hit me with the absolute "must plays" in England and a few hidden gems.  The more detail and description the better, of course.  But if all you have time for is to drop a name, you know I'll do the leg work to educate myself.

Thanks in advance, this is certainly a weak spot in my knowledge base.

Mac,
Pull out top uk lists and click on courses in England.
Or go to the courses by country section of GCA.
Plenty to choose from.

[Ron Csigo]

Mac,

Although I have yet to play golf in England, here are a handful that I've earmarked to play in the near future based on region:

West of Manchester:

Formby
Hillside
Southport & Ainsdale
Birkdale
Liverpool
Lytham & St. Annes

East of Manchester

Woodhall Spa
Alwoodley
Ganton

London Area:

Sunningdale - Old & New
St. Georges Hill
Walton Heath
Swinley Forest
The Berkshires

Southeast of London:

Royal Cinque Ports
Royal St. Georges


Others:

West Sussex
Rye
Royal West Norfolk

We can talk in more detail about these in a few weeks.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Good list but leaves out SW England featuring St Edonoch upps spellcheck please and Royal North Devon. I would toss Rye in with RSG and Royal Cing Ports in SE. Manchester/Liverpool is the strongest golf area in England for seaside golf and on par with the best of any Scotland area.

[David_Tepper]

Mac -

In terms of quality, and certainly in terms of quantity, golf in England is easily the equal of golf in Scotland and Ireland. Track down a copy of James Finegan's book on English golf courses ("Blasted Heaths and Blessed Greens").

The 75-mile stretch from Liverpool to St. Annes could be the strongest stretch of links golf in the world (Royal Liverpool, West Lancs, Formby, Southport Ainsdale, Royal Birkdale, Royal Lytham St. Anne's, etc.).

The area west/southwest of London could be the best collection of inland courses in the world (Sunningdale, Berkshire, Wentworth, St. George's Hill, Woking, New Zealand, Swinley Forest and many more).

In Kent, there are at least 5 quality links, Royal St. George's, Royal Cinque Ports, Prince's, Rye & Littlestone. In southwest England, St. Endoc, Trevose, West Cornwall, Perranporth, Burnham & Berrow, Westward Ho!, Staunton, etc. are all worth playing.

That just scratches is the surface of what is available. I do not know why golf in England is not more visible to the American golfers.
Maybe some of our English GCA-ers can offer their opinions on that.

DT    

[Jason McNamara]

I think Mark Rowlinson took down his impressive list of courses and websites that was in the IMO section.  Understandable, since it's very difficult to keep up with the latest links.

But here are many of the original constituent threads:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7550.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7568.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7573.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7612.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,7620.0/

Also Paul Turner has reviewed a substantial number of the Colt courses in England.  Sean Arble has filled in some of the holes, esp. in and around his (gone-)native West Midlands.  (See esp. Beau Desert.)

Some big ones yet to be mentioned on other posts here would include

Silloth-on-Solway    (Cumbria, not near anything unless you helicopter across the Solway Firth to play Southerness)
Notts                      (East Midlands, also Lindrick in that area, a gem which hosted a Ryder Cup)
Hunstanton            (pair with R West Norfolk)
Royal Worlington    (9 holes, a favorite here)
The Addington        (London, but not SW like the Surrey greats)

[Anthony Gray]

  Mac,

  The HE double hockey sticks with those England courses......GO TO CABO. You can even sleep in the gutter it will save you some money.Give Greg a call.TRUST ME.I think.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Mac:

I wrote somewhere in The Confidential Guide that I thought the average golf course in England would beat the average course anywhere else.  Sean Arble and Paul Turner and Mark Rowlinson keep posting tours here which seem to reinforce the point.

There are no courses I rated a "10" in England but there are many, many, many 5's and 6's and 7's, along with several 8's and 9's.  Most people seeking out the top 100 pass on the second tier of English courses, but in nearly every case, where there is one top-100 course there are 3-4 very good courses in the same neighborhood ... and around London you can multiply that by 5 or 10 times. 

[Kevin Pallier]

Mac

The thing I enjoy most about England is the variety of golf and collections of courses in reasonable close proximity to one another.

"Must plays" + considerations for main regions I've been to =

Kent = Royal St George's + one can play Deal + Princes

Sussex = Rye, West Sussex + for something different Royal Ashdown Forest (the course with no bunkers)

Greater London = Sunningdale, Swinley, St George's Hill, Walton Heath + Berkshire or the "3 W's" = Worplesdon, West Hill, Woking

Lancashire = Royal Liverpool, Royal Lytham & St Annes, Royal Birkdale + Formby

Norfolk = Royal West Norfolk + Hunstanton or Royal Worlington

Devon = Saunton + Royal North Devon or St Endoc (*comes recommended)

[Ally Mcintosh]

If I had to choose one country to play golf in for the rest of my days, England would win hands down....

...That's from a Scot settled in Ireland....

[Jamie Barber]

And in England, the further east and south you go, generally the better the weather.

[James Boon]

Mac,

The biggest advert for golf in England, with specific regards to this website, is that the biggest supporters of the country are an Aussie (Scott Warren) and an American (Sean Arble). Now if a Scot (Ally M) is chipping in as well, all we need is a Frenchmen to sing the countries praises and I'm leaving 

But in all honesty, there are so many great courses here, its tricky to know where to start? The Kent coast, London heathlands, south west and Lancashire coast are all well known. I think the biggest advert for golf in England is the quality of the courses in the areas perhaps not so well known?

In the Midlands we have Notts (Hollinwell), Sherwood Forest, Lindrick, Woodhall Spa, Beau Desert and Cavendish which wouldn't tick many boxes if you are looking for World top 100 or Open venues, but there is certainly more than enough quality and heritage for any GCAer to have an awesome trip. And heading north into Yorkshire you will find Allwoodley, Moortown and Ganton and a host of other hidden gems. So if you combine the London heathlands as well, you could easily have a great trip to England without even smelling the sea...

Cheers,

James

[Mark Chaplin]

England's strength is it's diversity of courses - world class links and heaths as well as some pretty good inland/parkland courses.

At Deal we often host discerning groups playing a week of matches against the best the south east has to offer. The last group from Durban Country Club played amongst others Sunningdale, Walton Heath, The Berkshire, Piltdown (a typical Arble gem), Rye, Sandwich and Deal.

Recently Bob Crosby, John Mayhugh, Bob Jenkins and Dan Moore have feasted during short trips and John Lyon and Scott Warren have played them all over longer periods. See their posts for great write ups and pictures.

Mac to educate you in south east England you fly into LHR or LGW usually the best for transatlantic fares, your close to London and Canterbury for culture, nothing is more than 90 minutes from LHR, you can get to most decent courses without a car, great links and heaths, gems such as The Addington, Woking, Knole Park, Crowborough and West Sussex and finally no coach tours of American and Japanese visitors so you feel like a golfer rather than sheep!

[Brent Hutto]

Mac,

On my first trip to England I played at Walton Heath, Littlestone, Deal, walked but did not play Princes and Sandwich and played at Huntercombe. In that order. June, 2006.

On my second trip I went north and played at Formby, Birkdale, Alwoodley, Moortown, Seaton Carew and walked but did not play Ganton. In that order, west coast to east coast of Yorkshire. September, 2007.

That just scratched the surface of what England has to offer but I must say there was not a single less-than-excellent course in the bunch and the best of those course are as good as can be found anywhere. I've since returned to Deal and managed to play at Princes and Sandwich this time around and if anything I found the courses more enjoyable than four years earlier. My problem is that I may never discover all the other many joys of English links and heathland golf now that I have grown so found of the southeast coast and the town of Deal in particular.

[Eric Smith]

Now if a Scot (Ally M) is chipping in as well, all we need is a Frenchmen to sing the countries praises and I'm leaving 

Brian Laurént may be your guy.

[Scott Warren]

Mac,

Most of the names that need to be named (for the record, it's "St Enodoc" - I think we were 0 for 4 on trying to spell that one!) have been named.

Here is an idea of what people are talking about when they say how amazing the London Heathlands are.

Excuse the rudimentary map - I am at work and MS Paint is the best I have at my disposal.

Woking is 20 miles from central London and there are express trains that cover the journey in 20mins.

On this map are 17 of the GB&I Top 100 as well as 3-4 others that are well, well worth playing.

All this less than 30mins from one of the world's greatest cities and with very good weather for golf (despite what many people say).

[Mac Plumart]

Amazing and awesome stuff.  Thanks!

How the heck did I overlook England golf up until now?  Don't answer that!!!   

[John Mayhugh]

Mac,
Don't feel too bad.  You really have to visit there to get a sense of how good it is, & I've only played in the London/Kent coast area.  I'm going back to England/Wales next month and would be thrilled if I could just repeat the courses I played last year.  A few photo threads.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41579.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41904.0/

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43049.0/

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

As an Englishman I suppose I am somewhat biased, but I agree with Mr Doak that England has some of the finest courses anywhere.
I like many on this site have been blessed to be able to play so many of the worlds"top 50" courses and as such have my opinions as to what I really like in golf courses.
One of the great things about English golf is that you can find golf courses still close to the architects original designs.
The fettish for changes to courses appears to be less prevelant in the UK...probably due to money, English golfers  as a whole are rather tight.....as such you can see many Colt designs for example close to what the great man intended.
The links courses of the North West are well documented, but there are others in less well known areas.
On the east coast in East Anglia there is the trio of Hunstanton, Royal Norfolk and Sheringham...all within a drive of eachother...within an hour you have Woodhall Spa, which in my opinion is the finest of all England's heathland courses....about two hours north is Ganton...so within a few hours drive you a trip planned...
that is merely an example of the treasures awaiting in the land of St George!!!!

[Shane Wright]

Scott - thanks for the fantastic map.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses to this topic.  I have studied the England courses a little and it seems there are just too many good ones to play on one trip.  We were able to "pound" out most of the best ones of Ireland and Scotland on 1 trip but England probably isn't possible. 

Mac, I know the sales pitch is strong here, but for your first trip across the "pond" I don't know how you don't do Scotland.

[Mark Chaplin]

John - thank you for posting the links to your photo tours from last September, I was laughing out loud at the "I miss England already thread" quality.

Also was I really 6 up after 6 against Scott at Rye.............

M P-W - is it good design that means many courses have changed little in 100 years with just a few tee being added and the odd bunker moved? I guess the average English man would think the average American paying $5k, $10k or more per annum for their golf club fees to be totally insane.

Shane - I love Scottish golf and the history, the point here is I know many Americans who've been to Scotland and Ireland upwards of a dozen times yet never been to England to play once.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mark,
I think gooddesign is indeed alot to do with it, but as we all know that has not stopped many a "greens chairman" from sticking his nose in and making "progressive" changes.

I think the avergae English golfer is just a little more resistant to spend money on such changes...not a critism at all, I think many courses are the better for being left alone.
As you well know the English demand alot for the spent pounds especially in the golf club enviroment, even though to peopel over here what they generally pay per annum is very little.

I was home last month and played at seven different courses.
I know that the summer has been unusually dry, but I marvelled at how the courses were not green on green...and how much money they must be saving on maintenance.
Upon my return I spoke to the head greenskeeper at my course and told him what i had seen.
He said that to actually go along with the new USGA suggestion of more brown would actually cost money.....it si hard to maintian less watered areas...I dont understand that, but I am not a greenskeeper

[Shane Wright]

Shane - I love Scottish golf and the history, the point here is I know many Americans who've been to Scotland and Ireland upwards of a dozen times yet never been to England to play once.
[/quote]

Agree totally Mark...I've been to Ireland 3 times and Scotland (2nd trip next summer) 1 time.  Part of it has been taking new playing partners for their 1st UK golf experience.  England unfortunately take 3rd place in a decision making process for an American golfer who has never been to the UK.  I am dying to get to England for golf.  I know I will fall in love because I am a links golf nut but I love the variety and can't wait to see heathland and others.  The quantity in England appears to be unmatched...and this discussion backs that up.  With a young family, a dad buying a house in Ireland, and several friends looking to get to Scotland, it is really hard to figure out when I'm going to get there.  But I'll figure it out somehow....my biggest issue is that it seems it will take almost 3 trips to get to see everything you want to see there....that is A LOT of deposits with the wife. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Shane..
The good news..neither England nor the golf courses are going anywhere...they will still be there when the timing is right