[Terry Lavin]

Maybe Chicago Highlands could step in and save the day? 

I got a good laugh out of this line.  I played there last week.  It's a nice golf course with about six memorable holes, but it's not worthy of a tour event, much less a major.  I'd put it right alongside the other solid Arthur Hills course in Chicagoland, Ivanhoe.  There are some very unique characteristics of the place, but there are a lot of ho-hum holes and a plethora of ghastly vistas from atop the landfill that lay beneath the turf.  You can see about forty water towers from some of the high spots and the Westchester water tower is an absolute blight on the landscape from the very first hole.  There's also a hole that abuts a toll plaza, complete with 100 foot wide signs.  The views, of course, are not the fault of the architect or the developer.  In this case, the land giveth and the land taketh away.  The high and mostly treeless setting provided by the landfill allowed the architect and contractor to move a lot of dirt around and create some interesting, if artificial, landforms, including an enormous protuberance that became the 9th green.  That's like trying to play atop Charles Barkley's abdomen!  At the same time, the difficulties imposed by the land's location required the building of a number of unsightly berms, mostly designed to deaden some of the highway noise.  I have the feeling that it will be a great members club, with a lot of interesting facilities (including a skating rink, I'm told), but I don't think it will wind up getting much acclaim apart from the creative use of a former landfill.  And we've already seen that in Chicago at Harborside.

[Garland Bayley]

I could be wrong about this but I heard Lang didn't even play golf?  He is just a big fan of the game. 

From what I have been told Erin Hills pretty much had it locked up for a long time now.  They really were not considering anyone else.  They basically told Erin Hills they had the Open last year. 

That's what I meant by marginal golfer. I.e., he might have gone out and hacked it around with borrowed or rented clubs a few times at the insistence of friends, but it was nothing he truly engaged in before buying that property.

[Richard Choi]

I take it that's because you've played Medinah often and have extensive, first-hand knowledge of its inadequicies?  

Nope, purely from aesthetics. I can't really tell apart what hole they are playing at Medinah. Pretty much every hole look the same on TV. Perhaps if I had some first hand knowledge it would be different, but on TV at least, the course is a snoozer.

I am guessing Erin Hills with its heaving dunes and intersting greensites and bunkers will look far more interesting.

[Garland Bayley]

While I've only played it once, I'm not so sure the land for Erin Hills was a strength.  I posted above that I found the course "clumsy."  In hindsight, I think that's primarily because the land is clumsy.  I don't recall a single stellar golf hole.

Mike

How about the dogleg around the esker?

[Terry Lavin]

I take it that's because you've played Medinah often and have extensive, first-hand knowledge of its inadequicies?  

Nope, purely from aesthetics. I can't really tell apart what hole they are playing at Medinah. Pretty much every hole look the same on TV. Perhaps if I had some first hand knowledge it would be different, but on TV at least, the course is a snoozer.

I am guessing Erin Hills with its heaving dunes and intersting greensites and bunkers will look far more interesting.

It's just a different aesthetic.  One wrinkled fairway looks pretty much like another wrinkled fairway.  One huge green surrounded by mounds looks sort of like another.  The same can be said for 470 yard par-4 holes lined by massive oaks.  Medinah probably needs to cut down another 1000 trees or so, but there's no denying that it is a major-worthy golf venue. 

[Richard Choi]

Terry I disagree. Tree lined courses are much harder when it comes to hole recognition on TV.

Look at Torrey Pines, even though most of holes look alike, because there is an ocean to anchor you, you can kind of tell apart which hole is which just based on that. And on courses like Bethpage, the trees are used on and off with very distinguished bunkers to tell the holes apart.

Medinah bunkers and treelined fairways look so similar from hole to hole, and with no major landmark (not even a water tower like you have at Firestone), it is really difficult to tell them apart.

[Terry Lavin]

Terry I disagree. Tree lined courses are much harder when it comes to hole recognition on TV.

Look at Torrey Pines, even though most of holes look alike, because there is an ocean to anchor you, you can kind of tell apart which hole is which just based on that. And on courses like Bethpage, the trees are used on and off with very distinguished bunkers to tell the holes apart.

Medinah bunkers and treelined fairways look so similar from hole to hole, and with no major landmark (not even a water tower like you have at Firestone), it is really difficult to tell them apart.

This sounds somewhat foolish to me.  "[at] Bethpage, the trees are used on and off with very distinguished bunkers to tell the holes apart."  This is also a good one: "not even a water tower...[so it's] really difficult to tell them apart."  Everybody's entitled to an opinion, but I'm not getting this one.  You don't need a major landmark to differentiate one hole from another.  The design of the hole does that.  If you can't tell a 470 dogleg right without bunkers in the middle of the course from a 400 straightaway hole in a corner of the course without a water tower, I can't help you!

[Phil_the_Author]

Terry and Richard,

Telling holes apart on television is difficult for the average viewer who is basically unfamiliar with the course, and in some cases, even for those who are familiar with it. That's because the viewing angle and perspective is very different from what your brain memory tell's you it should be. And this is with or without trees.

For example, and bethpage is a good one with this, most people couldn't tell you whether a player was hitting the ball from the left rough by the bunkers on 10 or 11 when the view is from the side as they both look the same and there are no trees in view.

Imagine, also, what may have beens een on television if they hadn't removed the more than 10,000 trees (that number is correct) prior to 2002 and another 1,000 before 2009... for whatever that may be worth in the discussion.

[Tom_Doak]

You don't need a major landmark to differentiate one hole from another.  The design of the hole does that.  If you can't tell a 470 dogleg right without bunkers in the middle of the course from a 400 straightaway hole in a corner of the course without a water tower, I can't help you!

Terry:

This argument tends to break down when all of the par-4 holes are 460 yards, as at many Opens.  But, I agree with you that a major landmark within the course is not a necessity to have a good and varied course.

[JR Potts]

This argument is so stupid.  Richard states that Medinah is not a good Open venue architecturally because he can't tell the difference between the holes on TV.  You have to be kidding me....I've heard it all now.

I just got back from Pine Valley and Merion last week.  I posted my Pine Valley pictures on Facebook and a buddy of mine on the Tour calls me at the airport and says...."God Pine Valley looks boring.  I can't tell one hole from another.  It all looks like the same tee shot....blind shot over waste bunker.....blind shot over waste bunker."

I proceed to tell him that it was far and away the best course I've ever played. 

He will likely be making a vist after that AT&T....but, one cannot and should not make comments or spew opinions without having set foot on the grounds in my estimation.  I think this idiotic thread as well as my buddy's comments prove that.

[Terry Lavin]

You don't need a major landmark to differentiate one hole from another.  The design of the hole does that.  If you can't tell a 470 dogleg right without bunkers in the middle of the course from a 400 straightaway hole in a corner of the course without a water tower, I can't help you!

Terry:

This argument tends to break down when all of the par-4 holes are 460 yards, as at many Opens.  But, I agree with you that a major landmark within the course is not a necessity to have a good and varied course.

Agreed.  That's one of the reasons that I wasn't impressed by Torrey Pines when I played it.  To me, it seemed like one 480 yard par four with pinching fairway bunkers around 280 out after another.  The ocean holes didn't do enough to make the course interesting for me.  Nonetheless, it was a spectacular Open because of some of the setup decisions by Mike Davis and the phenomenal play by Woods, Mediate and Westwood.

[Richard Choi]

Ryan, calm down and step back from the deep end. No one has said anything about whether or not Medinah's architecture is open worthy. I just stated that I would rather watch (on TV) a US Open hosted on Erin Hills rather than Medinah.

I think it is pretty idiotic for someone to comment without trying to understand what people are saying.

When you are watching an event on TV, it makes it more interesting when you can recognize what you see on TV. Medinah, with almost hole being treelined and with similar bunkering, it is very difficult to recognize individual holes. It is like watching Nascar on TV, every turn looks the same and I have hard time watching it.

With more open courses, you have more visual cues on the screen to tell the holes apart simply because there is more to see in the field of view. Point of reference helps you locate yourself. It is more like watching an F1 race with varied turns.

I am not making any architecture judgement here as I have never played the course. All of my comments are based on what I would rather watch on TV.

[Tim_Cronin]

TV and golf hole recognition? Really, don't most avid golfers (not us GCA crazies) know only three courses from TV? They know Augusta National's back nine, Pebble Beach's ocean holes and St. Andrews' 17th and 18th. And then only a handful of holes from each. (Once upon a time, I'd have said they would know the 16th at Firestone because of the CBS Golf Classic, too.)

[Phil McDade]

TV and golf hole recognition? Really, don't most avid golfers (not us GCA crazies) know only three courses from TV? They know Augusta National's back nine, Pebble Beach's ocean holes and St. Andrews' 17th and 18th. And then only a handful of holes from each. (Once upon a time, I'd have said they would know the 16th at Firestone because of the CBS Golf Classic, too.)

Tim:

Far more people know the 17th at TPC than most of what you mentioned, Augusta National maybe excepted...

[jonathan_becker]

I wish someone had some updated photos to post.  I know there are a few EH guys that post on this board, but maybe they're waiting for opening day on 7/31. 

I've played each version of the course and hopefully this 3.0 version will be the best. 

[Steve Salmen]

This thread is getting dangerously close to becoming about what course one would rather see on TV than one that identifies the best players.  Medinah has absolutely proven to be a world class test.  So what if I don't recognize the hole at first glance?  If Johnny and Dan and Roger do their jobs, I'll be filled in pretty quick.

Besides, the US Open starts at Pebble tomorrow.  What better course for TV?  We should be pretty excited about that.  For the record, Sean O'Hair is my pick.

[Richard Choi]

Steve, if Torrey Pines can host a world class test for its open (and I don't think anybody can argue that it was not exciting), not sure if that is the best indicator for architectural merit.

[Phil McDade]

I wish someone had some updated photos to post.  I know there are a few EH guys that post on this board, but maybe they're waiting for opening day on 7/31. 

I've played each version of the course and hopefully this 3.0 version will be the best. 

Jonathan:

A very good thread from Dan Moore from a year ago showcasing some before and after pics; certainly more will be evident after the re-opening later this summer:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40451.0/

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks, Phil.  I was just looking at that thread during my lunch!

Specifically, I want to see the new #10, now that it's supposedly a par 4.

[JR Potts]

Richard:

I believe what you said is that US Opens become snoozers when the courses that you haven't played are tree lined, without landmarks and you can't recognize the holes.  You futher stated that blow out bunkers make a course/hole more recogniziable on TV and thus, make the course interesting for viewing on TV.  And that, I find to be strange...if not disingenuous.  I didn't put those words into your mouth...you typed them above.

That's all I'm saying.

Ran - I hope the course that is prominently featured on the home page (Sagebrush) never hosts an event on TV.  I can barely tell those two holes apart.

[Tim_Cronin]

TV and golf hole recognition? Really, don't most avid golfers (not us GCA crazies) know only three courses from TV? They know Augusta National's back nine, Pebble Beach's ocean holes and St. Andrews' 17th and 18th. And then only a handful of holes from each. (Once upon a time, I'd have said they would know the 16th at Firestone because of the CBS Golf Classic, too.)

Tim:

Far more people know the 17th at TPC than most of what you mentioned, Augusta National maybe excepted...

Oops. I often have brain lock working in the office!

[Garland Bayley]

Steve, if Torrey Pines can host a world class test for its open (and I don't think anybody can argue that it was not exciting), not sure if that is the best indicator for architectural merit.

Good example Richard.

The US Open strongly desires two things. The room to put on the commercial bonanza they conduct. The length of course that works with today's play.

They get both those things at Chambers Bay and at Erin Hills. They got that at Torrey Pines. Then there is the region thing that Sully mentioned. These are probably the determining factors why these sites were selected. Erin Hills (and perhaps Chambers Bay) has another factor. The USGA needed to put the stake in the ground claiming the site, since they lost Whistling Straits earlier. I welcome Erin Hills to the open rota!

[Steve Salmen]

Steve, if Torrey Pines can host a world class test for its open (and I don't think anybody can argue that it was not exciting), not sure if that is the best indicator for architectural merit.

I am not making any architecture judgement here as I have never played the course. All of my comments are based on what I would rather watch on TV.

Richard,

I see two of your quotes here that appear conflicting.  Do you prioritize architecture over what you would rather watch on TV?   Did you enjoy watching Torrey Pines on TV?  I did, and though I'd rather play Carlton Oaks up the road, Torrey proved a fine test and was won by a worthy champion. 

[Richard Choi]

I believe what you said is that US Opens become snoozers when the courses that you haven't played are tree lined, without landmarks and you can't recognize the holes.  You futher stated that blow out bunkers make a course/hole more recogniziable on TV and thus, make the course interesting for viewing on TV.  And that, I find to be strange...if not disingenuous.  I didn't put those words into your mouth...you typed them above.

Can you explain why you find that strange and disingenuous?

[Phil McDade]

...the Madison and Fox Valley/Green Bay metro area...

Us city folk get a kick out of descriptions like this... 

Watch it, bub. I once had to wait nearly five minutes in a traffic jam on my way downtown. And the traffic in Green Bay on Sundays in the fall can be pretty bad...

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