The Silver State's Top Ten ...

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more interesting aspects about Nevada is that it's fairly easy to play many of the top courses in The Silver State. The two main concentrations are in and around the Clark County area (Las Vegas) with the other in the greater Reno / Carson City locale.

I've been going to the state for well over 30 years and someone who is going out there recently asked me to give him a listing of my best recommendations. I've posted it here to get some generalized comments from those who have been there.

As an FYI -- I have not played the new Nicklaus layout called The Chase at Coyote Springs but I hope to be there sometime in early spring '09.

In the spirit of time I've posted my top four now -- the next three will follow tomorrow and the final three in a day or so.

I certainly welcome comments - pro, con or anything else for that matter.


1), Wolf Creek (Dennis Ryder) / Mesquite

Like Las Vegas itself, Wolf Creek eschews convention and sameness. It is truly an Indiana Jones wild ride with little desire to conform to classic school architecture. For those favoring such designs and who carry a turned upwards nose where tees / greens must be immediately next to each other and where walking is part and parcel of one's time when playing -- the best advice I can give regarding Wolf Creek is simple -- stay away - this course is not for you.

However ...

If you prefer a match play layout that features a quirky and high risk / reward style then Wolf Creek will provide a brand of golf that is never boring -- Wolf Creek kicks into gear like top shelf spicey Thai food.

There are quite a few special holes -- the 2nd hole provides one of the most scenic of vistas -- provided you can make the climb to the back tee and once there the options to go for the big tee shot or play safe are equally fraught with peril. The short par-4 7th is a driveable hole but danger lurks on all sides. The par-3 8th is likely the most exacting of long par-3 holes you can play in all of Nevada and maybe even the USA. Some say it's too tough because there's no fair way to play the hole. I see it much differently as you have more than a few tee boxes and the downhill nature to a large target is quite fair -- it's just the realization that anything other than a solid shot can be quite fatal.

The back nince starts slow but kicks into high gear with the sensational downhill par-5 12th. The short 13th is one of the more underrated holes and the par-4 14th -- clearly shaped by man's hands is a devilish hole on both the tee shot and the elevated approach that is called upon.

The main weakness ?

The closing hole -- with its fake waterfall that does nothing but provide clutter to the lunar landscape you encounter throughout the round.

Wolf Creek gets hit on by naysayers who can't take the cart rides and bitch about the non-playable features. I've played the course no less than roughly ten times and with the company of a wide variety of players. In each time the net result were golfers of all types and stripes thrilled to encounter such a wild ride.

Unlike Shadow Creek -- where the story is more about how the course got built -- rather than what came from such efforts -- Wolf Creek is for a certain breed of golfer who embraces a rough and tumble challenge knowing full well that disaster can strike at anytime but also knowing that when the execution is provided on any number of holes / swings the feeling of euphoria will be no less than what you get when playing just about top tier classic layout.


2 . Southern Highlands (RTJ, Jr. w RTJ assisting) / Las Vegas

Superb setting with plenty of natural movement to the property. Unlike the other high profile courses in the area (see Cascata and Rio Seco, to name just two which are well conditioned but offer a number of sleep-induced holes)) Southern Highlands demonstrates RTJ, Jr at his very best. I really liked his work at Corde Valle but SH is a good bit better. (As an FYI -- I have not played his work at Chambers Bay to date).

Yes, the mesmermizing clubhouse gets plenty of attention -- my God, it makes The White House look second tier -- but the design elements of many of the holes work quite well.

I really enjoyed the bunkering and the way in which the Jones' were able to add water to the mixture while at the same time providing solid alternate routes for those less inclined to be so bold. Unlike his dad's designs -- the bunkers are tighter to the target lines -- less fluffy and more connected to shotmaking decisions you'll need for any number of holes there.

The uphill par-4 10th is really well done -- here the tee shot must be placed between demanding bunkers and the green site is set high enough above you when approaching.

The closing stretch of holes is good with the long par-5 18th serving as both a birdie and double-bogey possibility to end one's day.

SH is quite private but anyone venturing to Vegas needs to secure an invite in one form or the other. You won't be disappointed -- I know I wasn't.


3. Shadow Creek (TF w Steve Wynn) / North Las Vegas

I give the place high marks in moving ahead in such a grandiose manner to create a pleasure palace testament to man's desire to overcome and impose his will. Steve Wynn created his own version of Orson Wells / Charles Foster Kane / Xanadu here.

What lacks for me about Shadow Creek is that there are so few holes that are especially noteworthy.

The short par-3 17th is a good one but I found the closing hole to be a rudimentary short par-5. No doubt there's a winding creek that intercepts the player a number of times throughout the round -- most notably on the 15th, to name just one area, but I didn't encounter anything edgy or even controversial about Shadow Creek.

When you have a course that highlights a story line on how it came into being and provides all the high gloss touches of Vegas excess (e.g. added woods and vegetation) -- with little character golf design wise -- I have say that the the totality of the actual golf itself becomes more and more of a product that operates in the darkest of shadows the longer the round progresses.


4. Arrow Creek / The Challenge Course (John Harbottle w F. Zoellar) / Reno

Many people likely will be wondering how does a John Harbottle course get mentioned in such high company. I was literally blown away by the sheer beauty and strategic qualities when playing the course.

The Challenge Course starts off in a big time way. The 1st climbs uphill and is a true three-shot hole save for those who hit the ball w Jason Zuback length. The hole is a tough par and you need placement with all three shots before getting to the green.

Harbottle created bunkers that set themselves deep into the land itself and provide a significant risk factor. The short 2nd is a good example of this type. When you get to the long uphill 3rd you really need to catch your breath as the course just keeps getting better and better.

Harbottle has included a redan 3-par at the 8th and it works quite well. Don't go expecting something akin to the 4th at NGLA but it's quite good.

You'll also encounter plenty of fall-offs in and around many of the greens and should any approach not be hit crisply it's very possible you will fall off the sides of a number of holes too.

Harbottle provided plenty of width with The Challenge but the journey you take when playing gives you views of the immediate Reno area that are truly top notch stuff. The on-course elements are not bystanders when there -- they contribute in a meaningful way as well.

Two of the weaker holes for me were the pedestrian short par-3 12th and the very reachable short par-5 13th. No doubt Harbottle added them to the mix as a way for any player to get back some progress after encountering a whole series of challenges worthy of the courses' name.

When standing on the tee of #17 - a devilishly long par-3 with stunning views of the city in the nearby distance -- the approach must be played with a jeweler's touch -- plenty of issue for anything hit short or too far left or right. The closing long par-4 18th is well done with its diagonal bunker protecting the left side.

Harbottle is not known by many here on GCA -- his recent work at Palouse Ridge in Pullman, WA is another layout that is worth a play for any person in that neck of the woods. Reno golf has plenty of golf options but so many of them are just diversions -- The Challenge Course more than matches up to the title it calls itself.

Yes, there is housing at the facility but it never really intrudes from the naturalness of the property and the golf shots you need to execute time after time.

[Mike Benham]

That's only 4 ...

[Jim Nugent]

Matt, Wolf Creek looks wild in the photos.  I heard in the past it had conditioning problems.  Comments? 

[rjsimper]

...what Benham said.  I am waiting for the rest.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

Hold your horses buckeroo -- the rest is coming -- couple of close calls need to be made. Curious to know -- if you have played in the state and how you stack your top four against the ones I've mentioned.

Jim N:

Yes, Wolf Creek is certainly "wild" in many ways but as I stated there are "classic school" types who would likely frown upon the place. What's ironic is that these same types embrace the quirky side of golf across the pond but when encountering here in the USA are quick to pan such places as silly and goof ball golf alternatives.

If you approach Wolf Creek with an open mind the adventure element is sure to be there for just about any level of player.

In regards to conditions --- there has been an isolated situation I have encountered when playing there but to be clear it's no where at the level that I have seen when playing AS in Globe, AZ.

[Ronald Montesano]

RE:  That's only four.

I figured that, since he thought Wolf Creek was so great, each of its 3 hole stretches counted as a course, and that it occupied places 1-6 on the list as a result.  Guess I was wrong...

[Kalen Braley]

That's only 4 ...

Always gotta be a Smartass in the group!! 

[Matt_Ward]

Ron:

That's quite funny !

Wolf Creek certainly does have adventure elements and you can likely group them in different sections when playing there.

Just an FYI -- the lone one area that's always been a disappointment when playing there is the lack of an adequate practice area -- you can only hit mid-irons tops.

[Mike Benham]

In the age of full disclosure, Matt's subject line is incorrect, call it bait and switch if you will ... should have titled it " ... Top Four and maybe 6 more ..."

Perhaps he was implying that he couldn't come up with 10 for the Silver State.


As for my Top 4, they don't include any of the ones you have mentioned ...

[David Stamm]

Wolf course at Paiute is a solid course, IMO. I haven't played it, but would either course at Genoa Lakes be in contention?

[Mike McGuire]

I would play the Wynn while you can - especially if you played the old Desert Inn course. Its a lot of fun to lay and an engineering feat to witness.

[Tim Leahy]

I just played the Palmer course at Arrow Creek and really enjoyed it, great views of Reno valley and very playable with many risk/reward holes, played firm & fast also. Played Montreux on the trip also and it was immaculate and very playable also, especially for a Nicklaus course.

[Jason Topp]

Some past discussions about Wolf Creek.
No reason to repeat.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34338.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35473.0.html

I agree with Matt's assessment of Shadow Creek and enjoued the Wolf Course at the Pauite reservation the best of the courses I played.

[Joel_Stewart]

Are you going to include courses in the Lake Tahoe area including Truckee?

I understand Shadow Creek is closed and Fazio is doing some substantial work there.  I would be interested to know what they are doing.

[Jed Peters]

Are you going to include courses in the Lake Tahoe area including Truckee?

Only if it's in Nevada!

Nominations?

Edgewood
Incline
Montreax (Mt. Rose Highway considered tahoe?)

[Carl Nichols]

That's only 4 ...

Matt's post says "In the spirit of time I've posted my top four now -- the next three will follow tomorrow and the final three in a day or so."

[Joel_Stewart]

Edgewood
Incline
Montreax (Mt. Rose Highway considered tahoe?)

I agree Jed but its kind of silly since the drive from Incline is just a few minutes to say Martis Camp, Coyote Moon and Old Grenwood and is 7 hours to Las Vegas.

Incline is a sleeper.  I'll be interested to hear if Matt has played Incline since Kyle Phillips did his renovation.   I thought it was fun yet a real test when I played there over the summer.

[Mike Benham]

That's only 4 ...

Matt's post says "In the spirit of time I've posted my top four now -- the next three will follow tomorrow and the final three in a day or so."

Who reads disclaimers these days ...

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

Patience is a virtue -- ditto reading comprehension. I did say I would post three more today.

Just would like to know that you don't have any of the four I mentioned at the top of my listing. What are your four choices ?

Gents:

Couple of fine points -- if a course is located JUST across the stateline it's not in NV.

Here goes with the final three (3) ...

10. Primm Valley / Desert (Tom Fazio) Primm

For all the hype and hoopla that TF generated in his collaboration with Steve Wynn at Shadow Creek, I have found that the work TF did solo at the Desert 18 for the Primm Valley Casino Resorts works just fine.

No doubt, TF has crafted the 18 here to reflect his skills in highlighting the beauty of each hole but there's more to the layout than just manicuring the place to the hilt.

The strength of the Desert Layout rests with having the requisite skills in driving the ball. Plenty of long par-4 are encountered and nearly all of them are well done. The Desert may be listed as a resort layout but it's much more than the just a pretty picture.

9. Boulder Creek / Desert Hawk & Coyote Run (Mark Rathert) / Boulder City

This 27-hole complex is a short hop, skip and jump from the lights and action of The Strip but the 18-hole combo that makes up the two nines chosen by me -- Desert Hawk & Coyote Run -- offer plenty of fun and show conclusively that dumping a ton of money to create a hidden hideaway like Cascata and Rio Seco, to name just two, is not always the ticket to success.

The name Mark Rathert will likely not draw any real interest but his work at the facility is very good -- playability is central to the two nines and with movement of tees and pin placements there's enough elasticity to test all types of players and the course has successfully held major state events with the Clark County Amateur and the '06 NV State Amateur.

Although rates have risen in the last few years -- Boulder Creek still provides a quality product with very competitive prices. The finishing holes on each nine -- both long par-4's offer H20 in a few spots and greens which are well defended and angled to handle only the most surest of approaches.

8. South Shore (Jack Nicklaus) Henderson

This was Jack's first private club in the state and while others are drawing attention -- I've always liked the course because the site features a movement from the low areas near the shore line of Lake Las Vegas all the way to the hills above -- a staggering elevation change of nearly 1,750 feet in total.

Often time when you have such movement the net result can be a slew of compromises and with that a number of holes that are nothing more than filler. That's not the case here unlike what you see with Cascata.

Plenty of playability and far from being just a "bear" of a layout that marked so many of Jack's earliest designs.

South Shore marries winning scenery with a well done array of different holes as they move through the rolling terrain. The par-3 17th is one of best golf holes in the Vegas area.

[Adam Clayman]

It's pretty apparent (and sort of sad) that this list, compared to other states, is ... well... rather depressing.

It would be a great race among states with the least amount of compelling GCA. (I assume public access is a criterion.)

While I have not played the wealth of courses Matt has in the state, I found Wolf Run in Reno to have enough variety on decent terrain to at least be mentioned.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Try to realize that Nevada doesn't have that much available land to develop given the Federal Gov't ownership of so much of it.

Adam, I've played Wolf Run in Reno and it's a fine layout when measured against the base line that calls itself golf in the area. However, I don't know if you have been out to Arrow Creek -- Harbottle's work at The Challenge Course is more complete and has less holes of average quality.

One other thing -- you make the assumption that states such as Nevada have less "compelling GCA." I would not make that leap -- unfortunately, you and others who see quality design only through the lens of classic school design elements may need to be a bit more pragmatic on what constitutues quality golf design. Just a thought for you and others to ponder.

[Andy Troeger]

I've never been in Nevada other than the Las Vegas airport (which really doesn't count). I was supposed to go next week but had to cancel the trip. How do the better courses there compare to Phoenix or Tucson?

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, Thanks for the suggestion to alter my view on what I think is quality.

You can rest assure that I have no bias to classic architecture. As a matter of fact, my resume on the classics is rather weak. I do however have a bias to golf architecture that attempts to fit naturally into it's surrounds, and, when those surrounds are comparatively benign or lacking oddles of character, to architecture that juxtaposes it's features to the natural. i.e. Lawsonia. Rather than do a half assed job (likely on a computer) where plans are handed to a third party construction crew. Either way, I'd like to think I appreciate thoughtful design, possibly in the dirt, and am learning how to have a more critical eye thanks to some contributors to this web site and some of the gracious hosts who have invited me to see their courses.
The majority of the work I've seen is modern. Odd that you jump to the conclusion you did about my bias. But if it stands the test of time, especially on principles, that is classic.

BTW, I've been to Arrow Creek a few times. I don't recall which course we played there. I remember the massive houses lining the hillside and a few holes that confused the golfer on the width available, but other than that, oh wait.. the course we played started with a ridiculous hole with a water feature guarding a narrow green set at an oblique angle, not much else. Wolf Run had many a memorable hole with greens of varying shape, size, and, orientation. Some even rolled front to back, oh my!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You asked, "I've never been in Nevada other than the Las Vegas airport (which really doesn't count). I was supposed to go next week but had to cancel the trip. How do the better courses there compare to Phoenix or Tucson?"

The simple answer is that AZ has the greater number of quality private layouts (gated community variety) -- both from the top tier -- let's quantify that among a top ten -- to a greater depth of layouts as well -- let's quantify that to a range of the top 20-25. No doubt the greater Vegas area does have its quality layouts but only Southern Highlands, IMHO, is really a course one could throw into the mix of AZ's overall top ten private.

Candidly, I am not a big time fan of Shadow Creek for the reasons I mentioned. I salute what TF did w Steve Wynn's $$, but the story is more about the creation than the finished product from a clear golf-related architecture story. If one wants to talk about the Xanadu / Hollywood production theme park that arose from the desert floor then a visit to Shadow Creek will not disappoint. If you are looking for quality "edge of your seats" Indiana Jones adventure golf -- then a quick detour to nearby Mesquite (about 75 minutes from The Strip) is the better choice.

The Vegas area does have its share of CCFAD layouts -- few are really inexpensive -- no different than the Valley of the Sun area and the Tucson locale. I did mention Boulder Creek -- a first rate taxpayer-owned layout just south of Vegas in Boulder City. Few people ever say much about it because so many people erroneously get caught paying a big time amount of money to play the more hyped locations -- Pauite Resort being one of them, The Badlands to name another.

Andy, if you were to visit the area and wanted to sample quality golf I would recommend a side visit to the Mesquite / St. George (UT) area because the range of available golf is quite good -- and it doesn't require a second mortgage to play any number of them.


Adam:

I simply offered a suggestion -- you are free to accept or reject it for whatever reasons you might have.

Unfortunately, people have weighed in on GCA who play a small grouping of courses in a given area and then feel free to extrapolate that limited survey and proclaim that a given area is a general wasteland. Nevada has certainly come a long ways since the time that Doak first wrote "Confidential Guide."

Let me also point out that the people who have designed the courses I mentioned in Nevada didn't exactly phone in the details you see with any number of them. Considerable time and thought were applied and it's likely a few of them -- most notably places like Boulder Creek will never receive much more than a passing thought -- at best.

Since you freely admit to developing a more critical eye -- I would hope that would include a bit of elasticity and more pragmatic sense of what can be seen as interesting and fun layouts.

Adam, keep this in mind -- you were very quick to assume Nevada likely has less "compelling GCA" (along with other states I imagine) I don't know how many different courses you have played within The Silver State to make that linkage. Clearly, you see Wolf Creek as being a waste of your time. I think you fail to see the fun and adventure elements tied to the layout in Mesquite. Likely, that stems from a clear preference / bias, call it what one will, to courses of a more classic designed pedigree. If you want to narrow your sense of what can be called unique and interesting design --then by all means knock yourself out and avoid it.   

Adam, one final item, if you can't remember Arrow Creek after being there a few times then your memory needs to be refreshed with a bit more accurate accounts from people like me that recall it very well.

Harbottle is a very underrated architect and his work at The Challenge w Fuzzy Zoellar had to handle the reality that housing would be included with the course. However, if you really paid attention, you might have noticed that such housing is far and away from the playing corridors and that the combination of holes is quite varied and uses the rolling terrain to provide both stunning visuals -- off site -- as well as design details that are far more complex than your basic run-of-the-mill layout generally found throughout the area. Harbottle is a person with talent and he maxed out the site for The Challenge in a major way.

You might not know this -- but there are two (2) courses at Arrow Creek -- the companion layout is a Palmer Course and it's far less in overall quality than The Challenge by Harbottle.

I've played Wolf Run and it's a good layout for the greater Reno area. But after playing both courses I would not hesitate for a second to play The Challenge three out of every four rounds.

Just my opinion -- nothing more.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Thanks for the info. I was supposed to play Southern Highlands and Wolf Creek--hopefully I'll be able to reschedule the trip eventually.