[Dan Herrmann]

I was playing our 10th hole with a friend last night.  He found his ball in a fairly large greenside bunker. 

On the way to get to his ball, he passed a tiny, little bunker that's probaby 7' x 3' in size.  He thought it was dumb and should be removed.

I said it was a really great feature of the hole.  It added challenge, even if a shot only finds it a couple of times per week.   I added that it gave a sense of randomness to the hole not unlike what you'd find at an actual links course.   I really like it.

All that said, is there a place for tiny bunkers in today's golf course design?

[tlavin]

I'd rather find an ashtray on the clubhouse patio, not on the golf course.

[JESII]

The one in the lay-up area on #16 at Applebrook (same architect) is genius in my opinion...I've played that hole about 7 or 8 times now and am totally paralyzed by a bunker that must be no more than a 7 foot circle in the middle of a 60 yard wide fairway...

[Bill_McBride]

Really small bunkers (like one I found hidden en route to the 14th fairway at Pennard  ) always remind me of Bernard Darwin's description of a really small bunker:

-- Barely large enough for an angry man and his niblick!

If they fit in, there's nothing finer.  There's one to the left of #16 at TPC Sawgrass that I thought was out of place.

[Bob_Huntley]

On tiny bunkers, I am reminded of the oft quoted answer to the question,"How many shots was that to get out?" The hacker replied,
" I don't know, I went in at ten at ten and got out at five past, you work it out."

Bob

[SPDB]

I love tiny bunkers. One of my favorites (guess the course/hole):

[PCCraig]

I love them.

SPDB--

11th Hole TCC-Brookline?

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan -

although like Terry I'd be happy to find a decent-sized ashtray on the club-house patio, I think small bunkers serve an important function. Besides the strategic and shot-testing aspects, I think they're important in "selling the look" of a golf course. If I arrive at a golf course knowing that there isn't any sand around for 100 miles, I'll still "accept" the fairway and greenside bunkers as part of the look, especially if they're done well. But that artifice would be more convincing with tiny little bunkers here and there, because it's easier to believe that IF these great big swatches of sand DID occur naturally, there'd also be these little pits of sand lying around too.

Not the most important thing in the world, I know, but it helps things look nice, which is nice....

Peter     

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks for all the great comments.

I too love them.  In fact, I recently found one I didn't know about after playing the course many times since we opened in '03.  Gil is really great with these babies!

[David Stewart]

Hi everyone,

New to the discussion group but have enjoyed being an observer for a while.  Still learning much about everything.  Thanks to all members for providing such a great place to learn.

In regard to this topic, would several very tiny bunkers be a good substitue for one large one?  Let's maybe just consider greenside bunkers.  I think that it would provide a bigger challenge due to difficult stances/lies.  So many times you see pros beg for the ball to get into a bunker because they are so good from them.  Would this provide a more difficult challenge or be deemed "unfair" or "gimmicky"?  Are there any courses you can think of that employ such hazards?

[Joe Bausch]

Thanks for all the great comments.

I too love them.  In fact, I recently found one I didn't know about after playing the course many times since we opened in '03.  Gil is really great with these babies!

Seems Gil has been using them for awhile now.  On the 7th at Inniscrone, there is a hugh bunker maybe 30 yards or more short of the green at this par 5, and one little tiny one on the left edge of the green:



And on the 13th hole, a brutish par 4 with a centerline bunker maybe 275-300 yards out, it has a little tiny bunker just above it that is somewhat visible in this photo:

[Tom Yost]

Morrish & Weiskopf often used a feature they called a "bunker in a bunker" like this on on the TPC Scottsdale 18th:

[Dan Herrmann]

Joe - Yeah, Gil built a couple of those "bunkers in a bunker" at French Creek too...

I really gotta get out there and take some pictures.  The only ones I have are 2-3 years old, and the course has really grown in nicely since then.

[Josh Smith]

Nice subject choice and title.  Great minds think alike

Tiny bunkers from last winter:         http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32034.0.html

Josh

[Ian Larson]

If its possible to have nature create a tiny bunker like these then I think there is no problem whatsoever having them in a design if they add some variety, character and challenge.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tiny Bunkers?

Isn't that the Don Ho follow up song?

[Sean_A]

Really small bunkers (like one I found hidden en route to the 14th fairway at Pennard  ) always remind me of Bernard Darwin's description of a really small bunker:

-- Barely large enough for an angry man and his niblick!

If they fit in, there's nothing finer.  There's one to the left of #16 at TPC Sawgrass that I thought was out of place.

I call foul on Ace.  Bill's Bathtub is most certainly not what I would call a small bunker. 


Though, I admit, B's B has been enlarged since Ace's visit. 

The bunker on the back of the 3rd green is much smaller.  However, because it isn't very deep I don't have a problem with it.


I do admit to not liking small deep bunkers because the swing can very easily and often be drastically inhibited playing to any direction.  IMO, this is bad design.  It should be the rare occasion where just getting out of a bunker is beyond the ability of a decent player. 

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

I do admit to not liking small deep bunkers because the swing can very easily and often be drastically inhibited playing to any direction.  IMO, this is bad design.  It should be the rare occasion where just getting out of a bunker is beyond the ability of a decent player. 

Ciao

Sean is this to say that one should always be able to extricate themselves from hazards?  After all a bunker is just a type of hazard.  Is a marshy hazard bad design because it doesn't allow for one to get out of it?  I won't ask about a pond...but for our water sensitive folks, I'll insert "ocean" and ask if not being able to play from it is bad design?

Or does this sentiment just naturally extend from your general loathing of bunkering in general? 

[Jay Flemma]

Dan, how about a picture of your hole?

[Bill_McBride]

Really small bunkers (like one I found hidden en route to the 14th fairway at Pennard  ) always remind me of Bernard Darwin's description of a really small bunker:

-- Barely large enough for an angry man and his niblick!

If they fit in, there's nothing finer.  There's one to the left of #16 at TPC Sawgrass that I thought was out of place.

I call foul on Ace.  Bill's Bathtub is most certainly not what I would call a small bunker. 


Sean, it's pretty wide side to side but not very long front to back.

Ciao.   

[Dan Herrmann]

Dan, how about a picture of your hole?

Jay - I'll see if I can take some tomorrow.  I'm taking the morning off and playing early.  Time to charge up the digital camera...

[Sean_A]

I do admit to not liking small deep bunkers because the swing can very easily and often be drastically inhibited playing to any direction.  IMO, this is bad design.  It should be the rare occasion where just getting out of a bunker is beyond the ability of a decent player. 

Ciao

Sean is this to say that one should always be able to extricate themselves from hazards?  After all a bunker is just a type of hazard.  Is a marshy hazard bad design because it doesn't allow for one to get out of it?  I won't ask about a pond...but for our water sensitive folks, I'll insert "ocean" and ask if not being able to play from it is bad design?

Or does this sentiment just naturally extend from your general loathing of bunkering in general? 

Kalen

I think you said it best.  A bunker is a different type of hazard than water.  WE can fairly easily shift bunkers about to meet out goals - that cannot be said of water.  I expect the opportunity to at least splash out in at least one direction.  Sure, there is the rare time when a player gets screwed in a pot bunker and doesn't have a play except to somewhere else in the bunker.  I believe this is the weakest element of pot bunkers, but shit happens.  I do take exception where an archie intentionally designs a bunker where often times a player of a decent standard cannot get out in one go.  Thankfully, in my experience anyway,these sorts of bunkers are very, very rare.  In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I do recall seeing a few.

Ciao

Ciao

[Mike_Cirba]

There is a very cool, tiny, hidden bunker (behind another bunker) on the par five 6th hole at High Pointe I played the other day.   I think I may have taken a pic...if I get the opportunity this weekend, I'll put it up here.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan, how about a picture of your hole?

That sounds like a sexual harrassment lawsuit waiting to happen!

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

The only bunker I can think of is the devils a-hole at PV...I've read some absolute horror stories about that one.  I would agree in concept though that one should have a reasonably good chance in getting the ball out of the bunker, even if it means going further away from the hole.  About the only time I see these kind of scenarios is on those pesky links courses in the UK.    How dare they design bunkers like that, don't they know they're supposed to be fair.

I would seriously love to see more penal bunkering in the US, but with the fairness mindset of the masses here, I can't see this style going mainstream any time soon.  Even with the penal bunkering at Oakmont, your average joe could still likely make forward progress, even if they have no chance of getting to the green.

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