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Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« on: July 02, 2008, 03:10:53 PM »


http://www.tobianogolf.com/gallery/

Looks pretty solid to me!

Thomas McBroom design (interview):http://www.tobianogolf.com/architect/

...has a little bit of Cape Kidnappers feel to it from the pics...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 03:12:51 PM by Chip Gaskins »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2008, 03:41:00 PM »
I played with one of the McBroom architects last weekend at Northland in Duluth. I asked him what projects he's done, and he immediately mentioned Tobiano, which I had not heard of. He said it was the best piece of property they'd ever worked on. Now I can see why.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brad Fleischer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 06:47:35 PM »
Have heard alot of good things about tobiano. Trying to get out there this summer actually. I also know there doing a housing development and want to get there before the views get obstructed. Would love to see some pics..

Greg Cameron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 07:34:13 PM »
 Those coming to see spectacular Tobiano might also somehow check out Sagebrush( 1hr south,in merrit) and Talking Rock(1 hr north,in the shuswap)if possible,.Maybe Mr.Mingay could chime in re access and opening dates re next years best new canadian.....
  P.s. Any picts of  Mcbrooms Tower Ranch  or Carelton-Cookes Cranbrook projects?

Jordan Caron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 09:29:40 PM »
I have heard mixed reviews from all ranges of players but they all say it's an amazing property.  My goal is to get up there and play there and his work in Kelowna at Tower Ranch sometime in August.

Brad Fleischer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 09:46:49 PM »
I was thinking predator ridge and tobiano flying into kelowana or kamloops. I'm gona have to check out the other courses you just mentioned. Any more info??

thanks

Brad

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 10:29:47 PM »
Tobiano should be awarded best new dumb blonde in Canada...

Average holes...
Hard as hell, not very fun, narrow sloping fairway with death on bith sides...
Really badly done rugged edge bunkering...
A lot of details way off as far as quality (grass line, tie-ins etc...)

but

A lot of hype and great views goes a long way

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2008, 10:46:43 PM »
whoa....nicely said.  if i would have posted that i would have been lambasted. ;D  thanks for the honest thoughts!

Dan Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 11:04:13 PM »
Pretty stunning pictures.  Along with Chip, my first thought was the aerials reminded me of the setting of Cape Kidnappers (only less dramatic).  Would love to get up there and see it at some point.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 11:13:37 PM »
whoa....nicely said.  if i would have posted that i would have been lambasted. ;D  thanks for the honest thoughts!

Don't be a wimp, Chip.  If you ask a member to play their course and then dog it, well, don't be surprised when they are upset.

But taking pop shots from the bleachers is less personal.

The fur flies around here from time to time, just follow my lead ;)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2008, 11:46:13 PM »
dog it??  dog what, i have said nothing on this board that i didn't discuss with the member of the course i was playing.  matter of fact, i always mention this board to most of the folks i play with.  matter of fact the member at augusta i pulled the board up the night we stayed there so he could read john k's remarks about me "smoking before sex"and had a good laugh....again you guys are so funny sometimes...puffery or keep your mouth shut.

i say something about windmills and 17 mile one lane roads (dismal), blind lay-ups to very narrow fairways (merion), and business models (ballyneal) and you call it pop shots. 

i suppose i could have said nothing...

i will follow your lead from this point forward :'(
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 11:56:19 PM by Chip Gaskins »

Ryan Farrow

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2008, 11:56:49 PM »
Tobiano should be awarded best new dumb blonde in Canada...

Average holes...
Hard as hell, not very fun, narrow sloping fairway with death on bith sides...
Really badly done rugged edge bunkering...
A lot of details way off as far as quality (grass line, tie-ins etc...)

but

A lot of hype and great views goes a long way

Haaha, I was about to ask you, but, is it fun? But I see you already answered that one.


 O well, I would still love to play it. After looking through all the pictures, it is eerily similar looking to the pictures of Kidnappers. I'm just interested in knowing where the earth was moved, you can kind of get a glimpse from some of the pictures, but it does seem pretty low key? I'd image those fingers were kind of convex before the golf course was there?


Andrew Balakshin

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2008, 01:33:27 AM »
Golf courses in BC are being built more for the veiw than the actual golf course. Tobiano, Sagebrush, Tower Ranch, and The Rise are all built on sites which should NOT have golf courses. Sad but true.




Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2008, 02:55:34 AM »
dog it??  dog what, i have said nothing on this board that i didn't discuss with the member of the course i was playing.  matter of fact, i always mention this board to most of the folks i play with.  matter of fact the member at augusta i pulled the board up the night we stayed there so he could read john k's remarks about me "smoking before sex"and had a good laugh....again you guys are so funny sometimes...puffery or keep your mouth shut.

i say something about windmills and 17 mile one lane roads (dismal), blind lay-ups to very narrow fairways (merion), and business models (ballyneal) and you call it pop shots. 

i suppose i could have said nothing...

i will follow your lead from this point forward :'(

Nevermind.  My whole point is it's safer to make comments about a course you didn't seek access to get on. 

You are much less likely to get crucified around here, as you complained about earlier.... 

It's fine to take cracks at a place, but I wouldn't do it immediately following a visit to said private club. 

That's sure to ruffle some feathers, methinks.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jim Nugent

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2008, 03:01:46 AM »
Andrew, you were real enthusiastic about Tobiano in your earlier thread about it.  Now you say the golf course should not have been built.  What changed? 

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2008, 06:50:20 AM »
Andrew: you're right, ideally you should not built courses on sites like Sagebrush and Tobiano... but IN REAL LIFE, it's about the only spots where you can:

A) have the permits
B) being able to buy the land because the prime land is too expensive because of the real estate boom
C) It's the ROCKY MOUNTAINS not the Sand Hills, what could you expect

I would say that a walkable course could have been done on the Sagebrush site but it would have been a par 70 of 6200 yards from the tips and could have been good. But at 700 meters of altitude, it would have played real short. Tobiano could not have provided a walkable course




Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2008, 06:52:23 AM »
I will probably play it tomorrow.

I'll report back with some pictures next week....

One thing I find intriguing.  Most pictures on the web site are aerial shots....  If the course is so good, why not have more pictures from the golfers point of view?

Sometimes, this is a bad sign.  Sometimes....

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2008, 01:45:30 PM »

I played Tobiano a few weeks ago.

On the plus side, it is phenominally gorgeous. Great views of the lake. The contrast between the barren landscape and the golf course is very dramatic and effective. Tom McBroom also came up with a fine design for what he had to work with. There are many ravines, gullies or arroyos, I think you guys in California call them. They are also very deep and severe and make for some almost impossible holes.

I believe it was 7, a par 3 from one promontory to another, with a small and shallow green. It is on the left side of the photo above, about half way down. Miss the green or the bunker up there and you are 30 feet below the surface of the green in junk, rocks and more. That may be okay but from what I heard and experienced, there is almost always a significant wind which makes shots such as that a lottery. We played in what was easily a three club wind and staff around there say that at 11 each day you can count on a big wind in either an easterly or westerly direction. Other holes also require all carry although where possible, there are chances to run the ball up to the green. No 5, a longish par 4 which goes down into a ravine, is an excellent hole with a narrowing landing area and a chance to bump and run into the green.

Several other good, solid holes with options but generally the topography is simply too severe.

Overall, I found it very difficult, especially with the wind. Also it is not walkable. The rough is very thick and long which adds to the slow play worries. It would be a miracle in my opinion if anyone finished in under 5 hours.

The head pro from my home course played it two days in a row and a BCPGA outing. 3-4 club wind each day, in opposite directions. I think he is a plus 3 or so but in any event, he concurred that it is too diffucult, in the usual wind, for the vast majority of golfers to score reasonably well. Cutting back the rough is a necessity.

But it is beautiful.

I will try to post a few pics tonight.

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2008, 04:56:26 PM »

Some of you have mentioned Cape Kidnappers and its similarity to Tobiano.

I have not been to the former but, assuming the terrain was similar, it would be very interesting to see how Renaissance dealt with the challenges compared to Tom McBroom.


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2008, 07:18:26 PM »
Those coming to see spectacular Tobiano might also somehow check out Sagebrush( 1hr south,in merrit) and Talking Rock(1 hr north,in the shuswap)if possible,.Maybe Mr.Mingay could chime in re access and opening dates re next years best new canadian.....
  P.s. Any picts of  Mcbrooms Tower Ranch  or Carelton-Cookes Cranbrook projects?

Hi Greg.

I was at Sagebrush the past five days. Holes 1-6 and 11-14 are nearly playable (I plan post a few photos at my blog tonight or tomorrow morning). Those holes will see some golf this year. The others are currently growing in. Realistically, a formal opening of all 18-holes will happen early summer 2009. So, Tobiano's a full year ahead of Sagebrush.

No comment re Tobiano... but, I will say, I've played it twice with Philippe 'Penguin' Binette  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2008, 10:22:42 PM »
Tobiano should be awarded best new dumb blonde in Canada...

Average holes...
Hard as hell, not very fun, narrow sloping fairway with death on bith sides...
Really badly done rugged edge bunkering...
A lot of details way off as far as quality (grass line, tie-ins etc...)

but

A lot of hype and great views goes a long way

Hmmm.

I'd disagree. Perhaps my Quebecois friend had a tough day. I think it is wide enough with the exception of the ninth hole, which is pretty damned tough. Yes there are heroic tee shots, and yes, there are some relatively big forced carries, but nothing that hard. I played it from a mix of the tips and next-to-backs and didn't struggle with it even in a wind. The back nine is wider and more forgiving, I suppose.

As for the bunkering, it didn't do anything for me -- but I wouldn't hold it against the course. In fact it kind of reminded me of Muskoka Bay (the bunkering that is), and people rave about that course.

As for poor tie-ins, I didn't see that. Land forms were extended nicely thoughout. The one notable exception was the fifth, where I think the cart paths were unnecessary.

As for difficulty, well, lads, be careful what you're saying when you just built a course with greens that are 10,000 square feet and up. Players at Sagebrush may get on in regulation, but five putts later.

And I don't get this tempest in a tea pot about the fescue. Fescue gets irrigated in grow-in. It gets thick and isn't much fun in the first two years. Oh well. Once it thins, Tobiano will be fine. Sure there's hype around this one, but I think, for once, it is warranted.

Can't say as much for The Rise, which was awful, though Tower Ranch was nice. I thought Canoe Creek was terrible, but the Cooke/Carleton work at Talking Rock was not bad at all -- with the exception of the holes that run straight up hill on the back nine.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2008, 07:35:27 AM »
Hi Robert

Played Tobiano three times from different decks... with a 3-4 months gap in between, same feel even if I played great the first time. The forced carries are no problem (maybe from the tips)

I don't mind difficult when it's : Hit your ball, find it and hit it again...  when it's difficult like, hit your ball, reload, take a drop... then it's boring difficult

Down the line, it's standard golf holes with a view, not the best thing that ever happen to Canada since Banff, or top ten in Canada as I've heard from some people on site... If it is, I'll be looking for another job.

Don't get me started on a hole by hole analysis


Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2008, 04:51:59 PM »
How was it "hit your ball, reload..."?

Where exactly? I didn't see that on one through seven, while eight and nine are tricky. Surely 10 through 14 would be tough not to find your ball, and 16, 17, and 18 are in front of you. What are you suggesting -- 100 yard wide fairways? Oh yeah, maybe you are.... not that I have a problem with that, but all golf doesn't have to be that way.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2008, 09:00:12 PM »
RT,

It's all about 100-yard wide fairways, my friend... even if the irrigation system ends up costing $4 million  ;D
jeffmingay.com

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