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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2012, 11:34:25 AM »
Sean,

Augusta chose to invite these fabulous women. Who wouldn't.  I can only hope that in the near future we will look back on the hate exhibited towards same sex marriage and wonder what we were thinking. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2012, 11:38:46 AM »
Sean,

Augusta chose to invite these fabulous women. Who wouldn't.  I can only hope that in the near future we will look back on the hate exhibited towards same sex marriage and wonder what we were thinking. 

JakaB

Fine.  The club decides it membership policy, perfect. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2012, 11:39:31 AM »
Sean,

It matters at Augusta because the Masters is essentially a public domain event given the stature in the sporting world that it has acquired over the years.  They tried to appear above it all, but the bottom line is these guys know that without the Masters, it's just another nice club below the Mason Dixon line and they caved like a house of cards.  And yes, when my daughter is the CEO of a large corporation and she wants to woo a golf mad client, she should have the same opportunity as my son to potentially gain access to such places and not be relegated to the "family" club in town where guys like us may be less excited to accept an invite.  Either that or forbid business outings altogether at such exclusionary clubs, as many corporations now do.  You can't have your cake and eat it in this instance IMO.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 11:47:38 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2012, 12:19:49 PM »
Jud

Yes, I already had this conversation about the Masters.  Effectively, you want to tell a club how it should run itself because the tournament it runs each year has become a huge success.  I think this argument stinks.  Where was the likes of you when the club struggled to survive all those years ago?

While I agree with your sentiments about business not being conducted at clubs, I disagree that if business is conducted at clubs that all should have equal access.  Whoever thinks that business is or should be conducted on a level playing field has rocks in his head because its a waste of time idea.  One's time is better spent making money rather than worrying about not having access to one of the flashiest clubs in the world.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:42:49 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2012, 12:28:30 PM »
I believe ANGC should be free to decide whom to admit as a member.  But I am also very happy that they have decided to admit these particular members.  

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2012, 12:28:58 PM »
Sean,

It matters at Augusta because the Masters is essentially a public domain event given the stature in the sporting world that it has acquired over the years.  They tried to appear above it all, but the bottom line is these guys know that without the Masters, it's just another nice club below the Mason Dixon line and they caved like a house of cards.  And yes, when my daughter is the CEO of a large corporation and she wants to woo a golf mad client, she should have the same opportunity as my son to potentially gain access to such places and not be relegated to the "family" club in town where guys like us may be less excited to accept an invite.  Either that or forbid business outings altogether at such exclusionary clubs, as many corporations now do.  You can't have your cake and eat it in this instance IMO.

Can someone fill us in on how much business is being transacted at Augusta? I'd guess it's quite low. The membership seems to be generally past retirement age.

And if that's the point of the argument, then the group truly being discriminated against is non-golfers.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2012, 12:35:26 PM »
John, my apologies for offending your delicate sensibilities, I should have known better. I'm assuming you were referring to my joke when you cited homophobia. Can't imagine you care, but it was a joke directed at the membership of Augusta and their perceived slowness in reacting to things, not at any gay people or the two individuals (I know nothing about their proclivities), and it was just a joke, nothing more. I'd like to think the fine folks of ANGC can laugh at themselves, but perhaps I am naive in that regard. I support their right to decide all things pertaining to the club and the tournament.

I personally am pro gay marriage and can't really understand how my joke could be interpreted as homophobic, but I have given up trying to understand how others choose to read my mind.

Nice post, Shivas.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:37:02 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2012, 12:44:04 PM »
George,

That defense worked for Fuzzy.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2012, 12:53:08 PM »
I suppose that's one way to look at it. I'd say consider the targets of each joke, but somehow I still don't think you'd understand mine, so I'll just say I'm not losing sleep over your misinterpretation, that's certainly one of the things you do best.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2012, 01:14:52 PM »
Sean,

It matters at Augusta because the Masters is essentially a public domain event given the stature in the sporting world that it has acquired over the years.  They tried to appear above it all, but the bottom line is these guys know that without the Masters, it's just another nice club below the Mason Dixon line and they caved like a house of cards.  And yes, when my daughter is the CEO of a large corporation and she wants to woo a golf mad client, she should have the same opportunity as my son to potentially gain access to such places and not be relegated to the "family" club in town where guys like us may be less excited to accept an invite.  Either that or forbid business outings altogether at such exclusionary clubs, as many corporations now do.  You can't have your cake and eat it in this instance IMO.

In other words, principle underlying the Constitutional right to peaceable assembly should take a back seat to the personal desire to make a a few extra bucks.  Lovely. Little wonder the Constitution is under daily siege.

Needless to say, I wholeheartedly disagree. This is a free country and if people want to invite whoever the heck they want to join their club, (a) it's none of my damn business and (b) protesting their free decision is merely a way to replace their free will with someone else's.



Shivas:

Bill Walton showed up for his senior year of basketball at UCLA with a head of hair that hadn't been cut in months. His coach, John Wooden, had a rule about such things, and told him in no uncertain terms that he couldn't play or practice with the team. Walton -- in full, 1970s-no-one-can-tell-me-what-to-do -- argued with the great coach, saying he was an All-American, the player of the year in college basketball, and anyway, no one could tell him how or whether he should cut his hair. Wooden, of course, agreed with him, saying no one did have that right. But Wooden also reminded his great center that the coach of UCLA did have the right to determine who practiced and played on the team. "We'll miss you," he told Walton. It took him 15 minutes to get his hair cut and return to practice.

While not totally analogous, there is a difference between the Augusta National Golf Club (a clearly private entity), and the Masters tournament (a public thing in many ways, by any common-sense interpretation of the world "public.") And as you astutely told Patrick Mucci, to think the club and tournament are not closely intertwined is to go fishing for the reddest of herrings.

ANGC doesn't have to disclose how it decides its membership, or even who its members are. But it also doesn't have to host one of the world's most notable sporting events, either. That it continues to do so -- and in doing so sell the viewing rights to that tournament to the public airwaves, as well as invite public scrutiny of the tournament (via tickets sold to the public, and press conferences with members of the 1st-Amendment-protected media) -- suggests the club views itself as not strictly private. Nor is it  totally public. It is a private club that does a very public thing once a year in April. As such, the wise folks who run ANGC know -- must know -- that their membership practices will continue to come under some level of scrutiny -- fair or unfair -- as long as they continue to host the Masters.

My guess is that the Masters meant more to them than continued scrutiny of their membership. I'm not surprised.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2012, 02:16:22 PM »


Are you sure that the club and The Masters aren't two seperate entities ?  ?  ?

Oh, Pat, you really are becoming a master in red herring arguments.

Let's assume ANGC and The Master are two separate entities. 
Do you have any doubt whatsoever that the former has complete control of the latter?

Yes, I do.
Just because entities fall within the circle of a controlled group under the IRS regulations doesn't mean that they don't act independently of one another.  While ANGC may have the ultimate authority, since it is their land, their course and their facilities, don't think that the members of ANGC have any direct say in how the Masters is run.


If so, for purposes of the topic hand, how does it make any difference? 

See the above statement


This isn't a liability issue, where it might make some sense. 

If it makes sense from a liability sense, then why wouldn't it make sense from an accounting sense ?

Let me put it another way.
If, what you and others claim were true, ANGC would not enjoy the same tax status as other private clubs


This is cash flow from The Masters. 

Cash flow to whom ?
Definitely not ANGC


Do you really think that people you just described as some of the shrewdest businesspeople around would set up an entity where the cash would be sequestered down at the subsidiary level, with no ability to distribute it up? 

I don't think you understand the relationship between the two entities.
And I don't think you understand accounting, tax and yes, legal principles.

You know and I know that if the two entities acted as one, as you claim, with the unfettered transfer of funds, that that arrangement would have been denied/disbanded decades ago.

And, your statement, "with no ability to distribute it up" would seem to indicate that you don't understand the difference between capital and operating expenses.
Nor do I think you understand the accounting issues associated with any club that hosts a PGA Tour or Major Championship.


C'mon, man...you know better than that...

I do know better, but you don't ;D ;Dhttp://


Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2012, 02:31:22 PM »
Kirk

I expect it makes a difference at Augusta, but not so much outside of the elite world top 1% clubs.  So far as championing the female gender (which is what I assume folks are applauding here) I don't worry about what private golf clubs do.  That isn't anything close to the front line or at least it shouldn't be.  Personally, unless Augusta wanted to change, I see this a sad day for private golf clubs.  I have always felt that folks have the right to socialize with whom they please even if I find it disagreeable. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against women joining Augusta if that is what the membership wants.  If it isn't what the membership wants, well then, shame on all of us.

Sean, all I'm saying is that it matters that they did it. Ultimately what happens at an elite golf club probably shouldn't matter to anyone who isn't a member, and I'd never say that they don't have a right to do whatever they want in regards to their membership. But it matters that they did it, to a lot of people. It matters that the way they did it makes it seem like they are celebrating it. How important this is in the grand scheme of things really isn't the point. I doubt that clubs that have a male-only membership will blink an eye at what Augusta is doing, and I don't believe that Augusta is doing this for that purpose. It's a broader, inclusionary point that they're making that has more to do with golf in general than the rights of private clubs in particular. My take, for what it's worth.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2012, 03:36:49 PM »
Dave,

If the IBM CEO doesn't get in now it's clearly not because she was a women.  Funny how even some of the richest guys in the country cave under the financial and public pressure to maintain their beloved tournament.  If they weren't about 40 years too late to the party, they wouldn't have put themselves in this predicament.  And yes the real culprit IMO was the tour who didn't have the balls to stand up to them in the first place.  This was strictly a face saving exercise all around.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2012, 03:44:48 PM »
Jud,

What could the tour have done?  Do you think that if the event didn't count toward the money list anybody would skip the event?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2012, 03:49:53 PM »
Well yes,

Having official money list, fedex points and it effectively being a sanctioned event has a huge impact, symbolically if nothing else.  We've been over this several times before, but I gotta believe that many of the mercenaries on tour would think twice about skipping it if it were essentially a fancy silly season invite event.  How could it be a "Major" if neither tour counted it as such?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 03:51:55 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2012, 06:13:44 PM »
Pat: don't put words in my mouth, please. I didn't say the members of ANGC have control over the Masters, and I didn't say that they act as one entity. I also didn't say that they don't work independently of one another.

And since those are the three principles upon which your response to my question is based, you didn't really address my question at all. Instead, you decided to set up straw men and refuted those, instead. 

My point related to the ability of ANGC to tap profits from the Masters to do what was suggested - provide assistance to less well off members if ANGC would so choose. 

That would be a prohibited transaction under any reasonable guideline and the beginning of the end of one of the two independent entities.

You have no understanding of how the two entities function


My point was that the mere existence of separate entities does not prevent that. 

Yes, it does.
You just don't understand how and I won't go into the details, but I will IM you.


You argued that, somehow, it does but never provided any basis for that position. And still haven't.

I thought you were smart enough to figure it out based on my response relating to capital and operating expenses.


Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2012, 06:22:31 PM »
Gents, FYI: Augusta National isn't a non-profit operation exempt from taxes the way virtually all other American golf and country clubs are. It is a for-profit company called Augusta National, Inc., as seen on copyright notices for its media guide and other publications. The Masters is run by Augusta National, Inc., just as Augusta National Golf Club is. How they manage their books should be looked at from that perspective.

You can find a 990 for almost every non-profit group, clubs (and the PGA Tour, USGA, PGA of America, etc.) included, by searching a couple of online websites. Augusta National? No.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2012, 06:48:52 PM »
Tim,

Are you sure that AN Inc doesn't provide the operational services for ANGC, which is a non-profit entity ?

Just like Club Corp or Billy Casper Golf provides operational services for non-profit clubs ?

Russell Lo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2012, 07:00:42 PM »
Is an invitation to join a private club guided more about enhancing the quality of membership due to the quality of the individual or in this case, acquiescing to outside pressures?

I'm wondering if Dr. Rice's invitation is a statement saying Clubs need to attract a wider, more represntative membership inorder to thrive, or is it simply to get critics to find somehting else to snipe about.

The list of clubs Dr. Rice has recently joined almost seems Michael Jordanesque, and to me, makes me wonder about the motivation to invite.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2012, 07:38:47 PM »

I'm wondering if Dr. Rice's invitation is a statement saying Clubs need to attract a wider, more represntative membership inorder to thrive.

One of the funnier things I've ever read on here.

Dave,

I would agree with you wholeheartedly if it were simply about a private club.  I don't disagree with you about Butler.  I don't know why any women, and frankly many men, would ever want to play there anyway.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:40:22 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »
Have either of the two new women members ever given birth? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2012, 08:08:08 PM »

Pat: I read the IRC fairly frequently. I am aware of NO prohibition on a non-profit controlling a separare for-profit entity or running a business for profit and applying the profits toward allowable, non-profit purposes.

We're talking about the reverse.

And you have to be  aware that if you remove the lines of demarcation between the entities, as you advocate, such that there's no operational distinction between the two, that the IRS would strike down the non-profit entity.

To fail to do so would allow the for-profit entity to shield all profits.


In fact, it happens all the time.

No, it doesn't.
But since you insist, list five (5) sets of entities, one for profit, the other a non-profit, that operate hand in glove with no restrictions on the transfer of funds between them.


And even if I'm not aware of some prohibition that does, you're still wrong here.

No, I'm not


ANGC, according to Tim Cronin, a professional journalist, is not a not-for-profit.

We agree that Augusta National Inc. is not a non-profit entity.
While I respect Tim's opinions, I don't consider him the ultimate arbiter on all matters.
 


And even if the For-profit entity is not the club itself, who do you think controls the for-profit entity? 

It's Board of Directors and Officers.


So in your desperstion to be right, you now have ANGC controlling NEITHER the for-profit corporation OR The Master? 

Technically, that's correct.


Really?

Really


Thats your position? 

That's my position


That ANGC controls NOTHING?  GMAFB...

Do you know how "Holding Companies" operate ?


But if these facts don't convince you, perhaps those vaunted Vegas oddsmakers in which you place so much faith could explain it to you...
I'll consult with them on my next visit


Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2012, 08:32:31 PM »
Tim,

Are you sure that AN Inc doesn't provide the operational services for ANGC, which is a non-profit entity ?

Just like Club Corp or Billy Casper Golf provides operational services for non-profit clubs ?

Are you certain that ANGC is a non-profit entity, and not just a d/b/a for Augusta National, Inc.?  There are no Form 990s (federal non-profit tax report) on file for "Augusta National Golf Club," as I would expect if it is a separate non-profit.  However, it could be that the "club" non-profit has a different real name and itself is a d/b/a as August National Golf Club.  For what it's worth, here's a link to the latest corporate registration filing for Augusta National, Inc. http://corp.sos.state.ga.us/corp/soskb/Corp.asp?443757.  I have not been able to find anything for Augusta National Golf Club as a separate entity, although, obviously, I've only spent a couple of minutes looking.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2012, 08:48:01 PM »
As I've said before, the act of pressuring someone into bending to your will (as opposed to their own) is about as disgusting a rebuke of the notion of freedom and liberty that I can think of. It is an insult to every person of good and free will  

Not quite right Dave. There would be fewer freedoms and liberties today if pressure wasn't applied where it was needed, but the real insult to 'persons of good and free will' is that they were denied those freedoms and liberties in the first place.

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Augusta accepts first women members...
« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2012, 09:06:08 PM »
Carl Johnson,

I recall, that when the club was first being formed, that the Bon Air-Vanderbilt Company acting for the club,
purchased the option to buy about 365 acres for the club.

Subsequently, a company called the "Fruitland Manor Corporation" was formed to buy the property.

At the same time, a seperate corporation was formed to own the golf club.
Bobby Jones's father was the first stockholder in that corporation.

The idea was that the Fruitland Manor Corporation would initially lease acreage to the golf club and that the club would eventually buy the land from Fruitland.

Most accountants and attorneys will tell you that you can't co-mingle funds from seperate entities.
Ditto cavalier self dealing.

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