[Andy Troeger]

Anybody played Cornerstone in Montrose, CO? From photos on their website it looks pretty impressive...

[Jonathan Cummings]

When 400+ courses a year were being opened annually maybe 50 "best new" made sense.  But I gotta agree in a year when only 100+ new courses opened, recognizing half of them leaves one scratching your head a little.  JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Just for curiosity -- what were the best new plays you encountered in '08 ?

Let's limited it to a top 5-7 -- no more than a top ten.

Thanks ...

[Mike Nuzzo]

in a year when only 100+ new courses opened, recognizing half of them leaves one scratching your head a little.  JC

Try 70+ at best in '08.
And I thought the golfweek list is cumulative openings over the last 2 years...

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - you're right, it's two years.

Matt are the only three courses I played last summer that would qualify

Colorado GC
Rock Creek
Ravenna (a stretch..)

JC

[Dan Herrmann]

I concur on Irish Creek.  Here is a prior thread discussing the work there:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32910.0.html

Its well worth a visit if you are coming to NC.

Ed

Ed, Isn't Irish Creek closed to outside play?

[J_McKenzie]

Dan,

Irish Creek is a private club, but I would imagine that you could gain access by having your local pro give them a call ahead of time.  They seem to be fairly accommodating, especially with reciprocals between local clubs in the Charlotte area.  I'm just guessing though.

John

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

How would you assess Rock Creek v other Doak layouts you have played ?

What did you think of Ravenna in CO - I liked the layout a good bit.

[Ed Oden]

Dan:

I agree with John's assessment of access to Irish Creek.  At least to this point, they have been very welcoming.  Perhaps that will change with their inclusion on the GW list or as their membership fills out.  Regardless, if you get a chance to play it is worth it.

Ed

[Seth Berliner]

Jonathan:

How would you assess Rock Creek v other Doak layouts you have played ?

What did you think of Ravenna in CO - I liked the layout a good bit.

Matt,

Thanks for the comments.  The golf course here at Ravenna has matured quite a bit since you were out last summer.  We have added more bluegrass on some holes and cut down the playable native areas to soften it up a bit.  It's still a stern test from our back tees as the course rating and slope would indicate.  I hope you can make it out  soon so we can play again.

The Golfweek raters came out in September and unfortunately for us, their votes were not in in time for us to be included in this years list.  They told me that if we had been included, our ranking would have put us in the 10-15 range on the 2008 list.  Needless to say it was a disappointment from a marketing standpoint to be left off the list.  We should be on next years list but that seems like eons away from now. 

We have some great pictures and video flyover of the holes that I would encourage you guys to take a look at.  Thoughts and opinions are always welcome.

www.ravennagolf.com

Seth

[Matt_Ward]

Seth:

Glad to hear the good news -- but the lack of the course on the listing speaks volumes on the problems with such lists because they really need to reflect when a given course opens.

Ravenna is indeed a "must" play for those visiting the immediate Denver area.

[Seth Berliner]

Seth:

Glad to hear the good news -- but the lack of the course on the listing speaks volumes on the problems with such lists because they really need to reflect when a given course opens.

Ravenna is indeed a "must" play for those visiting the immediate Denver area.

Matt,

My sentiments exactly.  Hypothetically, if a course opened in '07 and in turn was ranked 20th on the '09 list, wouldn't people wonder why the course wasn't in the top 50 on the '08 list?

Seth

[Mike_Cirba]

Dumb question having never played there yet, but why at Rocky Mountain altitudes is Ravenna at just over 7200 yards from the tips rated at 75.0 and 149 slope?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

FYI -- what the distance doesn't indicate is the nature of the terrain at Ravenna. You need to properly fit your ball into proper landing zones to get the most out of any approach shot possibility.

The first third of the course is where you need to score -- if it's going to happen. From that point on the course really puts plenty of pressure on the tee game and there are quite a few holes where the march is more uphill -- therefore negating any of the altitude gains you alluded to.

Mike, the issue for many who don't really appreciate Colorado golf is that too many assume that with altitude that must automatically mean driver / wedge-olla into any of the par-4's. That may be for the strongest of the strong but Ravenna has calculated that element into its design.

If you ever play the course -- when you make your first trek to the state I'm sure you will likely see firsthand what I am speaking about.

Seth:

The reality is quite simple -- if a place opened in '07 it should only be listed as "new" for that given year. Digest has done this in previous circumstances because raters could not get off their butts and play courses with a minimum attendance. Thus, the magazine "wisely" decided to take a "new" course from one year and plunked it down in the following year. As a result -- the "new" category is anything but and really penalizes the course that opened in a given year and those courses that were lumped with such un-rated courses from the previous year.

For my money -- Ravenna would easily make the top listing of private layouts when it first opened.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I've been to Colorado for golf before, but it's been too long and I do need to make a return visit, which I'm hoping to do this year.

Of any state in the union, it seems that the Rocky Mountain State has upped its game considerably during the past 5 years, and having also driven through there a number of times on non-golf related business, I know well enough that there are some terrific, vast open spaces where golf just fits the eye.

[Seth Berliner]

Dumb question having never played there yet, but why at Rocky Mountain altitudes is Ravenna at just over 7200 yards from the tips rated at 75.0 and 149 slope?

Mike,

Good question.  From our back tees the course plays 7263 yards with a par of 71, not long at this altitude.  We do have a couple of long forced carries from the back tees and the front and back nine yardages are vastly different with the back playing over 3900yards.  Length is definitely an advantage but the course puts a premium on hitting fairways and the correct spots on the greens.  If a good player hits 18 greens at Ravenna and I could choose where to place his ball on the green depending on the hole location, I guarantee he doesn't break 75, especially the first time out.  We have a lot of movement to our greens and solid iron play may be more important than a deft short game.  If you short side yourself there are just some hole locations you can't get it up and down unless you make a lengthy putt.  

It's a great test for a good player and with five sets of tees, playable for all skill levels.

Seth

[Seth Berliner]

Mike:

FYI -- what the distance doesn't indicate is the nature of the terrain at Ravenna. You need to properly fit your ball into proper landing zones to get the most out of any approach shot possibility.

The first third of the course is where you need to score -- if it's going to happen. From that point on the course really puts plenty of pressure on the tee game and there are quite a few holes where the march is more uphill -- therefore negating any of the altitude gains you alluded to.

Mike, the issue for many who don't really appreciate Colorado golf is that too many assume that with altitude that must automatically mean driver / wedge-olla into any of the par-4's. That may be for the strongest of the strong but Ravenna has calculated that element into its design.

If you ever play the course -- when you make your first trek to the state I'm sure you will likely see firsthand what I am speaking about.

Seth:

The reality is quite simple -- if a place opened in '07 it should only be listed as "new" for that given year. Digest has done this in previous circumstances because raters could not get off their butts and play courses with a minimum attendance. Thus, the magazine "wisely" decided to take a "new" course from one year and plunked it down in the following year. As a result -- the "new" category is anything but and really penalizes the course that opened in a given year and those courses that were lumped with such un-rated courses from the previous year.

For my money -- Ravenna would easily make the top listing of private layouts when it first opened.

Matt hits the nail on the head in this post.  Score well on the first seven holes because holes eight-18 will not give many good birdie opportunities.   

Matt,

Again, thanks for the kind words.  Ravenna is a great golf course that only few have had an opportunity to play.  BIAS OPINION ALERT**** It fits my #1 criteria of a great golf course and that is I can play it every day and not get bored.  And yes, I have played many of the courses that those here on GCA would consider "great".

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt,

I posted my personal rankings of Doak courses I've visited over the years earlier in the summer.  I was gratified that everybody on the panel agreed with my Doak rankings!     

I would place PD, Barnbougle, Kidnappers, clearly higher than RCCC.  Ballyneal and RCCC are just behind those Doak "giants" and although you will kill me for saying this (humor me and pretend AP is in perfect condition), Apache is nipping at Bally's & RCCC's toes. 

Forgetting the golf course for a minute, RCCC may be the most comfortable and wonderful Doak club setting of them all.

Seth - thanks for having us at Ravenna.  It is a wonderful course set over a rather challenging piece of real estate.  In my group we may have liked the short L/R optional 7th best of all.  But if you ask Armand, I know which hole he would pick! 

JC

[Seth Berliner]

Matt,

I posted my personal rankings of Doak courses I've visited over the years earlier in the summer.  I was gratified that everybody on the panel agreed with my Doak rankings!     

I would place PD, Barnbougle, Kidnappers, clearly higher than RCCC.  Ballyneal and RCCC are just behind those Doak "giants" and although you will kill me for saying this (humor me and pretend AP is in perfect condition), Apache is nipping at Bally's & RCCC's toes. 

Forgetting the golf course for a minute, RCCC may be the most comfortable and wonderful Doak club setting of them all.

Seth - thanks for having us at Ravenna.  It is a wonderful course set over a rather challenging piece of real estate.  In my group we may have liked the short L/R optional 7th best of all.  But if you ask Armand, I know which hole he would pick! 

JC

Jonathan,

We were happy to have the group out to Ravenna.  It was a perfect day for golf and Armand's shot can be categorized similarly.  The 7th is one of my favorites as well. 

Seth

[Kirk Gill]

Colorado CC had a number of excellent holes as well and overall I thought the course deserving of mention as a top new course. At the same time, I had the perception that there was a bit more earth moved to build this course than other C&C courses I've played (Cuscowilla and Chechessee), that the course was more built than found.

Interesting comment. I have not played the course, but took a tour during construction. I was told at that point that the only substantial earth moving that was done to build the course was to cut into a hillock at the top of the course near the clubhouse site to allow the first and 18th holes down and away, and back up. What holes would you say were "more built than found?"

I had an opportunity to play Ravenna last summer in a charity event. I really enjoyed the course, particularly the 7th, a fairly short par four with an intimidating drive over a deep cut, but with a longer/easier route to the left. I just had a blast on the course, although I was having a rare good day so I didn't get beaten up as badly as some of my playing partners. My only criticism of the course is that because it is bisected by a hogback, the climb over and back makes it a tough walk, although the elevation allows for an enjoyable tee shot to the par 3 16th. Too bad it wasn't eligible for this list.

[Matt_Ward]

Kirk, et al:

A good case can be made that Ravenna can battle for a spot in the state's overall top ten.

Jonathan:

I hear what you say about AS -- but it needs a good bit of attention from the turf side for that to happen.

Ditto my agreement with on how natural the setting is at RC.

Jonathan, we do part company on the notion that Pac Dunes is ahead of Ballyneal -- I see it in reverse -- just get the feeling that the Pac Ocean provides a cushion of brownie points which makes the margin between them.

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