[Tom Yost]

** Update **

Tee time made - 9:30AM Sunday Oct 19

We have room for one more if anyone is interested.  We will probably carpool from east Mesa.

Send me a PM...
Tom

--------------------------------
It's overseed time in the greater Phoenix area, so it seems like a good time to make a trip out to Globe to play Apache Stronghold.

Haven't picked a date yet, but I was thinking of one of the upcoming October weekends.  Anybody interested, please advise which date(s) work for you and we'll try to put something together.


Tom

[Bruce Leland]

Tom, I would love to make that trip as I am a huge fan of Apache Stronghold.  I have missed my last two year's February trips but hope to make it this Feb.  Architecturally speaking, I don't think there is a better $69 stay and play package available in the US of A. 

Couple that with the opportunity to more than make it back at the poker table fleecing the locals and you have an unbeatable combination!  Free golf, room and board and meals.  Sounds like college all over again!

[Bill_McBride]

Just don't bother bringing your tuxedo to make a big impression in the casino. 

[Tom Yost]

We generally eschew the pedestrian fare at the casino and head straight for the haute cusine at Libby's El Rey. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tom, et al:

The $64,000 question -- how much better -- if it is better mind you -- are the overall turf conditions? That's what needs to be addressed.

Thanks ...

[Bruce Leland]

Just don't bother bringing your tuxedo to make a big impression in the casino. 

That's shaken....not stirred!

[Tom Yost]

Tentative date - Sunday Oct 19.

Anyone??

[Bill_McBride]

Just don't bother bringing your tuxedo to make a big impression in the casino. 

That's shaken....not stirred!

However, I did find playing the Apache Stronghold course to be a "stirring" experience.  I did truly love that course.  Still trying to figure out how to play #16 but otherwise, great stuff.

[Tom Yost]

Just don't bother bringing your tuxedo to make a big impression in the casino. 

That's shaken....not stirred!

However, I did find playing the Apache Stronghold course to be a "stirring" experience.  I did truly love that course.  Still trying to figure out how to play #16 but otherwise, great stuff.

16 is easy.  Choke down driver to middle of landing area, 5-wood to front edge of green, get the eagle chip close, tap in for birdie!   

Watch out for rattlesnakes in the waste area!
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31613.0.html

[Jonathan Cummings]

Lots of posts about AS.  As I've trumpeted, I think the course is architectural brilliance - maybe the best desert chaparral layout of all.

Tom - please let us know how you found the conditions.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Still can't buy the argument you've made countless times about the architectural brilliance of AS because you seem to forget / ignore the related importance of conditioning that brings to life the concepts and transforms them into some sort of actuality when playing the game.

I have a great degree of respect for AS but I won't be returning there anytime soon until I've heard that the conditioning element is far improved from what it's been the last two times I was there.

As I have opined, my first visit to the course was fine to a degree -- the next two were degees of a horror show.

I will dare say that among modern designed layouts the best desert chaparral layout is Black Mesa just outside Santa Fe. The layout there has all the design elements you have written in regards to AS about previously plus the daily attention to course conditioning that enhances to an even larger degree what the design is meant to provide.

AS is a concept that you have taken to a few steps down the road without having the related theme that conditioning -- not of the Augusta variety mind you and others -- is part and parcel of the overall picture. To say otherwise, is simply applying a tag to a course without the actual playing of the game calculated into the total picture in my opinion.

[Bill_McBride]

Just don't bother bringing your tuxedo to make a big impression in the casino. 

That's shaken....not stirred!

However, I did find playing the Apache Stronghold course to be a "stirring" experience.  I did truly love that course.  Still trying to figure out how to play #16 but otherwise, great stuff.

16 is easy.  Choke down driver to middle of landing area, 5-wood to front edge of green, get the eagle chip close, tap in for birdie!   

Watch out for rattlesnakes in the waste area!
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31613.0.html

You are obviously a lot more observant than I am.

[Jay Flemma]

have a great round and please post photos.  tell us what seom of your fave holes/greens are.

[Garland Bayley]

Jonathan:

Still can't buy the argument you've made countless times about the architectural brilliance of AS because you seem to forget / ignore the related importance of conditioning that brings to life the concepts and transforms them into some sort of actuality when playing the game.
...

I guess all the links courses of the British Isles were dead to Matt before then went and actually installed irrigation. As everyone knows a pot bunker is useless, unless there is verdant green grass growing around it.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

The conditions at AS on my last two visits were less than playable and clearly were a major detriment to what the architecture provides. I simply wanted to know from those who play there in current time if the actual conditons have truly improved. Got it.

The courses across the pond are a far different matter and I would think someone of your brainpower would know the difference because I most certainly do. So much for my assumption.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

So you are saying that the conditions at AS the last times you played there were worse than conditions were in the British Isles in say 1860? How far back do you have to take the courses in the British Isles to get to the point where the conditions invalidated the architecture?

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Allow me to straighten out your confusion -- I have no issue with courses across the pond as they relate to the situation I have encountered at AS.

The conditions at AS the last two times I played there were unacceptable to me given the high nature of what the architecture provides.

You're the one who tries to create some linkage between AS and courses in the British Isles -- not I.

[Garland Bayley]

Matt,

You are the one that wrote a sentence that I suspect most would interpret as saying that without  good conditioning the architecture doesn't come to life.

Did you mean something different by the sentence I quoted? If so, please explain yourself.

[Matt_Ward]

I've written that on a few occasions -- if you seek a more detailed reply simply head back to those discussions and re-read them. It's fairly straightforward and the appropriate context by which I stated such an opinion is also outlined. The info provided may help with your own confusion.

[Cliff Hamm]

Of course good conditioning is related to the course coming to life.  Isn't firm and fast constantly discussed here?  Would you want to play a true links course that was so watered that drives plugged in the fairway?  Would that not affect the architecture?  Ever play a course with bumpy greens that made putting irrelevant?  Do you enjoy playing after greens are aerated?  Conditioning and architecture are very interrelated.  To make an analogy does the ambiance of a restaurant affect the meal?

[Garland Bayley]

Cliff,

I don't think Matt was saying AS was overwatered.
Furthermore, putting is a more recent fetish. This is GCA, not GGA (golf green atlas, i.e. architecture). My point being that before watering, before machines for course care, people were playing TOC and finding different routes to the holes for their games. The architecture was alive, the conditioning absent.

[Cliff Hamm]

Garland...Of course Matt was not saying AS was overwatered.  Just used that as an example of how conditioning certainly affects architecture.  As far as TOC we could also drive on dirt roads rather than interstates.  I really think your reasoning is quite illogical.  One can see the architecture thru the absence of conditioning, but there is no doubt that conditioning contributes or takes away from the architecture.  To argue otherwise is simply ludicrous.  Conditioning clearly affects the overall experience of golf....btw what do you mean when you say putting is a fetish?

[Garland Bayley]

Putting is a recent fetish!

As the golf ball improved and other equiptment (e.g., steel shafts) improved, a higher and higher percentage of strokes were made putting compared to striking the ball. For this reason, some of the old dead guys wanted to build 12 hole courses on the same amount of land that was used for 18 holes courses so the nature of the game would not change excessively to have too much emphasis on putting.

As far as TOC goes, the various infamous named bunkers had a significant role in the architecture. As we saw with a better conditioned course (and better equipment), the bunkers were rendered meaningless by TW. One could (not illogically I would argue) say that modern conditioning has deadend the architecture.

[Garland Bayley]

If would appear to me that Matt is really saying that if he can't get great lies on course, he doesn't want to play the game, or that he is too spoiled by other courses to want to play the game at Apache Stronghold. It has nothing to do with the architecture of the place.

[Mike McGuire]

Garland -

I have played AS on two different trips and understand what Matt is saying.

I have also played in Scotland and Ireland.

Your argument is absurd.

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