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Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2023, 07:49:59 AM »

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.

Tom, you misread my point.
I was just surprised Andy Johnson did not ask Rob Collins if Pinehurst replied to the KC proposal back in October 2021. That would have been my first question, even if the response was "no comment."


Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2023, 08:36:19 AM »

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.
it wouldn't be smart to talk about private Pinehurst comments.

Ciao

Someone did.

This is the first time I've heard that Pinehurst "rejected" the KC proposal, past or present.
I guess I gotta upgrade my membership status.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2023, 09:20:31 AM »
Pinehurst clearly wasn't isn't ready for such a concept on such a large scale, and given their clientele and business model, another marquee 18 hole course, especially by the premier designer of our era,makese sense-for them..


I do find such a playground intriguing and feel it might well work on a slightly smaller scale(less greens /$$ to build).
I love the idea of cross country golf across a property,especially if much of the rawness of the original property(if desireable) could be maintained simply and become/remain playable.
Maybe 12 greens forming different routings of 6 or 9 hole loops.
Might be a way to insure repeat play-especially if rerouted on consecutive days, or the same day in a shotgun format.
Double the revenue(at least) from the one time hit and runners
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2023, 09:24:09 AM »
Actually I don’t have any inside information on whether Pinehurst rejected the proposal or just didn’t respond.  I was assuming that the designers must have been invited to make a proposal.  If they are spending their time just going around to potential clients who haven’t expressed an interest in them, that would seem to me to be a low-return strategy.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2023, 10:15:39 PM »
I’m confused by this situation.  It appears like King Collins is saying Pinehurst made the wrong call?  Does anyone else feel like it’s a bit of bad form for an architect to release and promote a plan for a project they didn’t win?  I guess Andy J found it newsworthy. I wonder if he’s talked to the Pinehurst group to try and learn why it wasn’t chosen?


I think it is bad form.  If I were any of the major developers today I would not engage King Collins for a proposal as it appears they are just going to run a counter marketing program for their own, not chosen design over the choice of the client.  Seems short sighted.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2023, 04:54:07 PM »
So, now we’re in the business of criticizing motives(assumed, no less) vs. criticizing design? Got it.



" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2023, 05:22:39 PM »
I believe Andy asked Rob if there was anything new in GCA he wanted to do. It felt like this was before the announcement was made that Tom would be doing #10 (I remember wondering if this was for another course as Tom said he wasn't using that much of the Pit). It seemed like Rob had some trepidation about sharing but was kinda like 'screw it, this is cool' and explained it. I don't know him personally but that seems to be his MO.

As far as sharing after the plans after, I don't get the big deal  -- I think its more of a risk to King/Collins IP than it reflecting badly on Pinehurst.  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.

The whole discussion around Pinehurst cracks me up -- I remember when Tom Doak wasn't the 'safe' choice.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2023, 06:22:16 PM »
I believe Andy asked Rob if there was anything new in GCA he wanted to do. It felt like this was before the announcement was made that Tom would be doing #10 (I remember wondering if this was for another course as Tom said he wasn't using that much of the Pit). It seemed like Rob had some trepidation about sharing but was kinda like 'screw it, this is cool' and explained it. I don't know him personally but that seems to be his MO.

As far as sharing after the plans after, I don't get the big deal  -- I think its more of a risk to King/Collins IP than it reflecting badly on Pinehurst.  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.

The whole discussion around Pinehurst cracks me up -- I remember when Tom Doak wasn't the 'safe' choice.
Buck, did you listen to the podcast episode?
Rob mentioned the Doak course during the interview.
Didn't sound like RC had any "trepidation" discussing the proposal beyond the first twenty seconds after the question was asked.

Hell, he even said it was an "absolute perfect thing for Pinehurst." And a little later (paraphrasing) [why wouldn't you do it?...five different merchandise opportunities].

I got the sense Rob loves Pinehurst and dreams of a King/Collins footprint there. I hope it happens for them.


Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2023, 07:29:03 PM »
  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.


I don’t have any interest in the the how, why, or when the project was rolled out but I do think it’s a unique concept that the right client will go for in the future. Whether a private, public or resort model is the right vehicle is up for grabs but regardless of same I haven’t heard of a similar proposal. Finally this assumes that the post covid golf market continues to sizzle.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2023, 07:41:12 PM »
  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.


I don’t have any interest in the the how, why, or when the project was rolled out but I do think it’s a unique concept that the right client will go for in the future. Whether a private, public or resort model is the right vehicle is up for grabs but regardless of same I haven’t heard of a similar proposal. Finally this assumes that the post covid golf market continues to sizzle.


Agree. It’s just not the right concept for this client.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2023, 08:13:08 PM »
I believe Andy asked Rob if there was anything new in GCA he wanted to do. It felt like this was before the announcement was made that Tom would be doing #10 (I remember wondering if this was for another course as Tom said he wasn't using that much of the Pit). It seemed like Rob had some trepidation about sharing but was kinda like 'screw it, this is cool' and explained it. I don't know him personally but that seems to be his MO.

As far as sharing after the plans after, I don't get the big deal  -- I think its more of a risk to King/Collins IP than it reflecting badly on Pinehurst.  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.

The whole discussion around Pinehurst cracks me up -- I remember when Tom Doak wasn't the 'safe' choice.
Buck, did you listen to the podcast episode?
Rob mentioned the Doak course during the interview.
Didn't sound like RC had any "trepidation" discussing the proposal beyond the first twenty seconds after the question was asked.

Hell, he even said it was an "absolute perfect thing for Pinehurst." And a little later (paraphrasing) [why wouldn't you do it?...five different merchandise opportunities].

I got the sense Rob loves Pinehurst and dreams of a King/Collins footprint there. I hope it happens for them.


I did listen to it when it came out
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2023, 09:47:57 AM »
  I would think this could help them find a potential client for this type of project.


I don’t have any interest in the the how, why, or when the project was rolled out but I do think it’s a unique concept that the right client will go for in the future. Whether a private, public or resort model is the right vehicle is up for grabs but regardless of same I haven’t heard of a similar proposal. Finally this assumes that the post covid golf market continues to sizzle.


Agree. It’s just not the right concept for this client.
While Tom has said for years, it is often the client who drives projects more towards traditional executions (i.e. 18 holes, Par 72, ~7,000 yard back tee box) I do think the future of golf should look toward more non-traditional executions of the game. I know King-Collins are not the only ones thinking about it in this way, but I do applaud them for discussing non-traditional course design in a more public setting. Hopefully the continuous introduction to concepts like this will encourage other owners to step out of the box and explore ideas like this more seriously.

It may be that this specific concept is/was not right for Pinehurst, but I could see a very similar concept being perfect for them. Maybe something a little smaller, closer to the original Sheep Ranch, that is accompanied by clusters of cabins and focused on groups renting the course to themselves for the whole day.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2023, 10:33:07 AM »
How close is the Red Feather course to the Rawls course? :-)




Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2023, 10:45:00 AM »
How close is the Red Feather course to the Rawls course? :-)
12 miles

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2023, 11:56:05 AM »
So, now we’re in the business of criticizing motives(assumed, no less) vs. criticizing design? Got it.


Well, why not? Any one of us golf architecture enthusiasts could dig for plans that didn’t come to fruition and I would guess, based on past experience, that we could get them. But I would argue that there is a reason that they aren’t in the public space.


I would be curious to know about NDA’s and potential jobs in the golf architecture world. I have no idea but I’d be surprised if the principle clients—individuals or entities—don’t require some sort of discretion from potential architects.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2023, 03:26:58 PM »

I would be curious to know about NDA’s and potential jobs in the golf architecture world. I have no idea but I’d be surprised if the principle clients—individuals or entities—don’t require some sort of discretion from potential architects.


Occasionally - maybe once a year - I have someone ask me to sign an NDA about a project before they will tell me any of the details.  I've found I rarely wind up doing those jobs!


However, I would say the default position for my clients is that they don't want to talk about the project until the permits are in hand, for fear that a bunch of people might show up at a zoning meeting protesting growth, or golf as a rich man's sport, or whatever is a divisive issue in that jurisdiction.  And that works right alongside our general preference not to talk about a project until we are sure that we are doing it . . . because for sure some other architects will be all over the client with their own proposals if they find out about it at an early stage.


When you hear a lot about a project before it's really a project, it's usually because the developer is looking for investors.  And of course young architects are trying so hard to get people to talk about them, they frequently make the mistake of talking about something that never happens, or that they don't get to do when the project eventually finds its footing.  That was true for me at Erin Hills.  Or, remember Pacific Gailes?


By contrast, Pinehurst Resort didn't say anything to anyone until they had started clearing trees for the routing.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2023, 03:46:30 PM »
I have not played any King Collins courses. I certainly want to get to Landmand though. Sweetens Cove opened nearly 10 years ago. Since then, despite all of the effective marketing, they seem to have landed (no pun intended) relatively few projects. Is that a function of the dominance of C&C, Doak, and Hanse (Ben Stephens, I already know your answer) or something else? I am not looking for the backstory on Tree Farm or Pinehurst (although my wager is that the resort did not seek them out).


Thanks.


Ira

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2023, 04:16:30 PM »
I'm not a player in this at all...but I listened to the podcast and got the impression that this concept was on different land adjacent to Tom/Angela's new course with the spoil piles.  I only listened once, but I had the thought while listening that it would be weird if he was commenting on the same land that he didn't get commissioned to build on.


I had the impression that there was theoretically space for X, Spoils, and even the C&C routing in this general location...but obviously a pipe dream that all three get built even someday.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2023, 04:19:33 PM »
I have not played any King Collins courses. I certainly want to get to Landmand though. Sweetens Cove opened nearly 10 years ago. Since then, despite all of the effective marketing, they seem to have landed (no pun intended) relatively few projects. Is that a function of the dominance of C&C, Doak, and Hanse (Ben Stephens, I already know your answer) or something else? I am not looking for the backstory on Tree Farm or Pinehurst (although my wager is that the resort did not seek them out).


Thanks.


Ira
Sweetens Cove, Inness, Overton Park, Landmand, Red Feather, Palmetto Bluff.

That's 5 original courses either complete or in construction, and one about to begin construction in the last 10 years. For a 2 man shop, that seems to be a pretty good hit rate. Beyond the dominance of the big 3 you mentioned, how many other architects have more courses over the same time?

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2023, 04:55:14 PM »
Ben,


Paul Rudovsky has posted projects around the world. My memory is that beyond the “Big 3”, there are several architects with more courses than King Collins. Plus I believe that three of their designs are nine holes (totally cool but a different category). But for the Pinehurst design, I would not have thought much about the question. But it did strike me as a bit odd that they would promote a design that seems to have no viability there. As noted, I hope to make it to Landmand—it looks really good.


Ira

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2023, 05:21:08 PM »

I would be curious to know about NDA’s and potential jobs in the golf architecture world. I have no idea but I’d be surprised if the principle clients—individuals or entities—don’t require some sort of discretion from potential architects.


By contrast, Pinehurst Resort didn't say anything to anyone until they had started clearing trees for the routing.


Tom,



Thanks for your answer. I have been around this community long enough to know that 1) we aren’t dealing with state secrets and 2) sometimes there is a reason people talk about things that didn’t happen beyond just academic interest. Which makes your last sentence above even more interesting.


Ira,


I’m not here to impugn anyone…other than Patrick Reed maybe.  :)  Kidding aside, The Spoils is an interesting and thought provoking idea without needing to attach it to Pinehurst. Just release the plan without a title or a name or an inference that this is what PH #10 could’ve been. Go on Andy’s show and talk it up! No need to connect it to the resort.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2023, 05:33:55 PM »



Sweetens Cove, Inness, Overton Park, Landmand, Red Feather, Palmetto Bluff.

That's 5 original courses either complete or in construction, and one about to begin construction in the last 10 years. For a 2 man shop, that seems to be a pretty good hit rate. Beyond the dominance of the big 3 you mentioned, how many other architects have more courses over the same time?






Overton Park is a 100+ years old municipal 9-holer in Memphis. They renovated it.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2023, 07:17:20 PM »



Sweetens Cove, Inness, Overton Park, Landmand, Red Feather, Palmetto Bluff.

That's 5 original courses either complete or in construction, and one about to begin construction in the last 10 years. For a 2 man shop, that seems to be a pretty good hit rate. Beyond the dominance of the big 3 you mentioned, how many other architects have more courses over the same time?






Overton Park is a 100+ years old municipal 9-holer in Memphis. They renovated it.
My mistake, I was under the impression it was complete ground up redesign.

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