[TEPaul]

Paul:

There was no minimizing of Colt's roll following Crump's death. Of course there was a glorification of Crump following his untimely death at 46, but no one set out to minimize Colt's roll in his one or two weeks there in that six year span of Crump's life there. In the eyes of PVGC Colt was one of many who collaborated on PVGC with Crump during his six years on that site daily. Colt was an important part of it and the club always felt that way with their long lasting impression that he routed the whole course---an inaccurate impression, I might add. Shelly and Finegan's history book's did not give Colt the credit he deserved decades later, that is very true and the reasons are clear now. Finegan particularly did not mean to minimize Colt---we've been through what happened there many times before.

For you to think that Colt's roll was minimized following Crump's death is simply wrong despite what you feel some magazines neglected to say. If you keep saying his roll was minimized following Crump's death I will conitinue to say you're wrong because you are. You don't really know the club, Pine Valley, all you know is some magazine articles. As Wayne said, don't always believe what you read. The best way is to look to the club itself.

But yes, Crump was glorified and for good and deserving reasons and thank God he has been---it's helped preserve the golf course!

[Paul_Turner]

An excerpt from the Pamela Emory article.  I guess Tom and I aren't the only ones that believe Colt, PVGC and design credit is a touchy subject with some at the club!

[TEPaul]

Paul;

As Pam Emory said---if you want to get into an argument with a Pine Valley member tell him that Colt had more to do with the golf course or it's design than Crump is a truism I'm sure both today and at any time in Pine Valley history. The reason should be obvious to you by now!! Because it's simply not true that Colt had more to do with that golf course's design than Crump. For you to say that Pam Emory's remark in that article proves that Colt had more to do with the design of the course than Crump would not be true. Pam Emory did not say that Colt had more to do with the design of PVGC than Crump even as she refered to that book's remark quoted in her article. And I can absolutely guarantee to you this---that Pam Emory (of Merion) did not remotely know the things about the details of the creation of Pine Valley, particularly regarding Colt's and Crump's part that we do today on here. And that really is the truth. I knew Pam Emory and I can guarantee that.

"....from Colt's blueprinted diagram was reared a magnificent course."

What blueprinted diagram would that be? I'm sure what is being referred to there is Colt's hole by hole drawings that have been part of the archives from perhaps June of 1913. I've mentioned on here many times that booklet is the very thing that has led to the decades old rumor that Colt routed that golf course.

Also when was that book written by Travers and Crowell?

[Paul_Turner]

There's something else that both you and Tom MacWood seem to be curiously silent about that I've mentioned a number of times. That is that so many for so long always assumed Colt routed that whole golf course. Neither you nor Tom MacWood ever knew that did you?

No I knew that, well before GCA.

How about the subjects that you are curiously silent about?  Namely:

1) Claiming that Tom and I ignore Alison and others.

2) Claimimg that I over advocate for Colt in other areas?

Travers was 1925.

[TEPaul]

I asked:

"That is that so many for so long always assumed Colt routed that whole golf course. Neither you nor Tom MacWood ever knew that did you?"
 
You said;

"No I knew that, well before GCA."

Well then Paul, if you knew well before GCA that so many assumed for so long that Colt routed that whole golf course why is it that you and Tom MacWood are claiming that PVGC and its members minimized Colt's part in that golf course? As we now know more than ever before, Colt DID NOT ROUTE THAT WHOLE GOLF COURSE! Have you already forgotten that you said on this very thread that you're pretty much in agreement with me on the holes that are Crump's and those that may be some of the recommendations of Colt?

"How about the subjects that you are curiously silent about?  Namely:
1) Claiming that Tom and I ignore Alison and others."

I didn't say you ignore Alison. What I said is I've never really seen either of you talk about Alison's part in the last phase of the architectural creation of PVGC (after Crump died). I have mentioned all of that in minute detail on here but I've never seen you two do it. This always seems to be about the minimizing of Harry Colt's contribution.

"2) Claimimg that I over advocate for Colt in other areas?"

If I said that, and I might have, I completely retract it. All I meant to say is, in my opinion, you've both over-advocated Colt's part in PVGC, and I think you're both continuing to do that. I don't think you do (Paul) as much as Tom MacWood but I also think you have perhaps about a 1000% better understanding of PVGC and it's history and the details of it than Tom MacWood does.

"Travers was 1925."

I have no idea what Travers knew about the details of the creation and evolution of PVGC and I have no idea when Crump may've said to him what's quoted in that book. Did Travers have a greater understanding of the details of what went on down there up until Jan 1918 than Tillinghast, Carr, Smith, Fownes, Thomas, the Wilsons, Hunter et al. Did Travers belong to PVGC as most all of those mentioned did?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"The Travis etching actually shows that the Cape 14th could bre play as a par-4 or shorter par-3, not unlike the par-3 in the Red routing."

Tom MacWood:

When you mention the 'Travis etchings' are you speaking of the individual hole drawings that include every hole on the course (except #12) that are all drawn in their own individual rectangular boxes?

If you are can you be sure those were done by Travis? If so, there are a few architects, particularly Gil Hanse, who are dying to know who did those hole drawings.

[T_MacWood]

If anyone is interested in the best description of who did what at PV, I'd point you to CH Alison's description.

[TEPaul]

it appears those hole drawings in rectangular boxes are Travis. I could never figure those out (they didn't look much like some of the Travis drawing's in Labbance's book) but it appears that they are almost identical to the reversible hole submission Travis made to Crump in 1915, so that's sure good enough for me. Don't know why I never compared those two as they've been in my file for a few years now. I might have to go back and check what this means to various timelines!

[TEPaul]

"If anyone is interested in the best description of who did what at PV, I'd point you to CH Alison's description."

Tom MacWood;

Well, let's see it then. I don't give a damn whether Colt, Alison or Mackenzie built the golf course, or whether Macdonald, Whigam and Raynor snuck in there for a few weeks undetected and built the golf course---I just want to get to the truth of who all did it someday. Maybe, Tillinghast, Thomas, Hunter, the Wilsons et al were all lying about George Crump's part and he really was just sitting around down there for 5-6 years dolling out the cash and watching his crews construct the course to someone else's design and watching the grass grow in the meantime. Maybe all this mention of the 'master hand' of George Crump has been one big massive fiction all these years. I guess stranger things have happened.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Living in England, my knowledge regarding Colt and the routing at PVGC had nothing to do with the members of PVGC or the club histories.  I can't recall exactly where that impression came from, but I suspect it came from reading Darwin.

That's why I was surprised when I came to the USA and the latest reports from the club were stating that Colt had nothing to do with the routing at all.

I think it's interesting that Emory states that 14 holes were open by as early as 1915.   I honestly do reckon that course was just about fully designed well before Crump died.  Probably as early as 1916. With the last problem being the 14th.  

Tom

Also, I thought we had determined that the etchings were by Travis, ages ago! (At the meeting at Alpine CC!)

PS

I also remember that the very first person on GCA to bring up the Tillinghast reports was Tom Macwood.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

From the latest PVGC history book..

The first 11 holes (1-9, 10,18) opened for play 11/7/14;

"According to the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin of Nov 11, 1914, on the previous Saturday, November 7, "....the opening of the Pine Valley course to the members took place. There were only 11 holes in play. It was a mild and pretty day....and many members turned out for the occasion, including, of course, George Crump himself, "whose wonderful foresight and generosity were responsible for the undertaking,"

14 holes (11,16,17) opened for play;

"It was during the first half of 1916 that three more holes---11,16,17---were opened for play."

18 holes (12, 13, 14, 15) opened for play, summer of 1920;

"Not until the summer of 1920 were holes 12,13,14,15 opened for play. And even then the bunkering was not finalized. It was felt that such finishing touches should be applied only after the holes were experimented with--1.e, played---for some months."

"With the war effort---in terms of both manpower and materiel---now a thing of the past, golf clubs were now free to pursue projects that had been shelved for a year and a half. At Pine Valley, the construction of holes 12 through 15 could now be tackled. Some weeks before the Armistice (11/18/1918) the board invited Merion Cricket Club's Hugh Wilson and his brother Alan to direct this important activity. Hugh, now 38, had laid out and supervised the construction of Merion East, which opened in 1912, and Merion West in 1914. Alan Wilson, who had counseled with Hugh on the two eighteens, was a member of Pine Valley as well as of Merion....Simon Carr was named by the club to work closely with the Wilsons, who would spend four to five months at Pine Valley. Jim Govan, who had been George Crump's right hand during the previous five years, would also play a key role in this task."

"As I understand it, Govan is to be relieved of his duties as professional and to put all his time on the course. I think this is most important, as he has a thorough knowledge of conditions and every minute of his time is needed to accomplish the best results. He is intelligent, capable, has an open mind and will, I believe, accomplish excellent results for you, if given the opportunitiy to give his whole attention to th course."
Report to Pres. H. Perrin
Hugh/Alan Wilson
4/30/19

"We have gotten all our top dressing work done at Pine Valley and I am glad to say that Flynn is going to take charge down there for three or four days a week and I think we will get a better organization and more work accomplished."
Letter to Oakley
from Hugh Wilson
6/9/1919

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I don't remember anyone saying those hole drawings referred to above were Travis. If so, that's too bad--Gil Hanse thinks they're a very different and cool style and has been trying to figure out who did them for years.

The first I ever saw of the Tillinghast articles on PVGC came from a poster calling himself "Tillinnghast" years ago. I copied and printed those posts. If Tom MacWood was calling himself Tillinghast then he supplied it, I guess. I thought "Tillinghast" on here back then was Rick Wolffe.

[Jud_T]

Just so Cowan doesn't think he's the only guy who can exhume old threads...

[BCowan]

It's Mr Cowan to you.  Ran wants old threads to brought to light, it reduces bandwidth from repetition.  As someone who has helped with deleting irrelevant threads I understand.  Are you going to post something of relevance to Harry Colt? 

[Sean_A]

Bob

No problem 

As Chris writes, Colt was one of the true pioneers.

The courses in his resume are extremely strong: 

Muirfield, Portrush (2), Pine Valley(part) Sunningdale New (Old part), St George's Hill, Hamilton, Royal Zoute, Swinley Forest, De Pan, Lytham St Annes (part), County Sligo, Belvoir Park, Hoylake (part), Eindhoven, Toronto, Wentworth(2), Eden, Kennemer, Falkenstein, Puerto de Hierro, St Germaine, Alwoodley(part), Royal County Down (part), Le Touquet

Got to go, I'll add more.

Interesting thread which I well recall.  Although, I never heard about the outcome of PVGC's design history.

IMO, Muirfield should be part Colt because its obvious that OTM's routing is strongly suggested in the currrent routing.  Also, I don't believe Colt should get any credit for Alwoodley.

Even taking away credit from Muirfield, Alwoodley and the far east does not diminish Colt's legacy.  That said, I would like to more about this idea that Colt transcribed links design concepts into heathland/parkland designs. 

Ciao

[Niall C]

Well that was well worth an hour or so of catching up on !!


Isn't it interesting how perhaps our (larger GCA community) perception of Colt has changed since the first couple of pages of this thread.


Colt was obviously hugely talented as an architect and probably/was the foremost architect of the first decade of the 20th century but I'm not sure he was a ground breaker and out in his own with his ideas. The mention of Muirfield is an interesting one as in the debate on Colt and his involvement at PVGC one of the protagonists, might have been Paul T, suggests that Colt didn't collaborate. Press comment of the time seems to clearly suggest that he did at Muirfield with Robert Maxwell.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Should you judge someones work, in this case Harry Colts, by their best work, their middling work or their worst work? Just asking.
Atb

[Neil White]

Should you judge someones work, in this case Harry Colts, by their best work, their middling work or their worst work? Just asking.
Atb

I'd say you need to look at all his work and consider when each was completed during his career, who may have assisted him, where the course is (limitations), how much time was spent by him on each particular project......


Also, who actually decides if a course is his best or middling work?

[Ian Andrew]

I didn't feel like backtracking to look to see if others had mentioned it ...
There's a new book on Pine Valley called Crump's Dream.
It has all the drawings, reports and remembrances.


I always though the pre-Colt stick drawing clarified an awful lot.
But that's strictly my own opinion.


I think you can read through and draw your own conclusions on who did what.
There's everything you would ever architectural want to see.

[Niall C]

Ian


I looked up that book you mentioned and some of the reviews that show the book and some of its content looks great. Unfortunately it appears to have come out a couple of years ago and already is as rare as hens teeth. Is there a paperback edition that I don't know about ?


Niall

[Ian Andrew]

I looked up that book you mentioned and some of the reviews that show the book and some of its content looks great. Unfortunately it appears to have come out a couple of years ago and already is as rare as hens teeth. Is there a paperback edition that I don't know about

Mine was a hardback copy and my gift for speaking at an event.

[MCirba]

Regarding who did what when re: Pine Valley, a few years ago Joe Bausch found a series of contemporaneous articles by Tillinghast that started around January 1913 if memory serves that provide a pretty good foundation for understanding how much work was accomplished by Crump before Colt's arrival in the states, and once understood, other subsequent maps give further clues.   

I haven't seen the new Pine Valley book yet so I'd be curious if any of those articles are referenced.

[Gary Sato]

Would an homage course work for Colt?  Seems like he has a great collection of holes.

[Ian Andrew]

Would an homage course work for Colt?  Seems like he has a great collection of holes.

In 2008 when there was going to be (I think) two dozen courses at Mission Hills Hainan Island, I was asked to participate in building a small section (six courses). The concept - and my reason for inclusion - was a six courses based upon six architects. They would have been Crump (managed to route the original holes out of order on a similar piece of sand terrain), Harry Colt, Mackenzie, George Thomas, Stanley Thompson (was at my request) and early Pete Dye (which to be honest was the one I didn't get or want to do). Only got to the routing and early concept stage.



Things got messy with land and I found I was getting busier so I asked to step away. I'm pretty sure they ended up better off with Ryan. But there are a few days where I wondered if I would have enjoyed the adventure ...

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