[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

To date, I don't think the color coded schematic provides concrete/conclusive evidence with respect to any aspect of the DA bunker.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Have you ever tried hanging a sign around your neck when out at some hot pick-up joints that says "I'm a know-it-all who is actually just an incredibly dumb Cluck" or would you say that's generally not been necessary?

[JMEvensky]

Patrick:

Have you ever tried hanging a sign around your neck when out at some hot pick-up joints that says "I'm a know-it-all who is actually just an incredibly dumb Cluck" or would you say that's generally not been necessary?

Why would he be out at "some hot pick-up joint"?What exactly would he be picking up?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Have you ever tried hanging a sign around your neck when out at some hot pick-up joints that says "I'm a know-it-all who is actually just an incredibly dumb Cluck" or would you say that's generally not been necessary?

No, I haven't, but, based on the miserable reaction/results that you received when you tried that approach, I don't think I'll be trying it anytime soon.
 

[TEPaul]

"I meant individual l-e-t-t-e-r-s, not reports  

Coincidentally, every 15th letter if you read them backwards is for a cracking Snapper soup."


I see. Knowing your scientific mind I wouldn't doubt you've already tested the historical accuracy of both. I know what dsylexia is but if your theories are true I think there are a few people on here who read both those ways.

As for Pat Mucci, he's a good friend and I know he's mostly an excellent Italian/American but I'm afraid he somehow got like a Chinese  brain transplanted into him just after delivery because his reading comprehension clearly shows he seems to read English either backwards or straight down or whatever it is the Chinese do with their Chinese language.

[TEPaul]

"No, I haven't, but, based on the miserable reaction/results that you received when you tried that approach, I don't think I'll be trying it anytime soon."



Go ahead and try it and see what happens with some hot chicklets. I've tried it and it works great which probably proves I'm naturally a whole lot sexier than you are or else most hot chicks really eat up a violently self-deprecating sense of humour.

By the way, did you notice how I just spelt what you think is spelt humor? In the last week I've been doing a whole lot of research on the Anglo side of the great 200 year old "Anglo-Saxon Anglo/American Malthusian Moneycrat Oligarchy and it's been rubbing off on me---- the Humour, that is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Have you ever tried hanging a sign around your neck when out at some hot pick-up joints that says "I'm a know-it-all who is actually just an incredibly dumb Cluck" or would you say that's generally not been necessary?

Why would he be out at "some hot pick-up joint"?            What exactly would he be picking up?

BEANS and KNOWLEDGE[/size][/b]

[TEPaul]

"In terms of ascertaining the date of origin, I would think that dated photos will probably pinpoint that date, then, working backwards you can determine who was President, Superintendent and Green Chair if the position existed.  You might also be able to ascertain which consulting architects visited PV prior to the creation of the D.A."


Patrick:

First of all I can pretty much tell you who the president, superintendent and Green Chair was at any point in time back then but on what you said about ascertaining the date of origin of the DA by working backwards with photographs, have you even been following what's been written on this thread? Can you even tell me the app date of the one available photograph that clearly showed that hole without that bunker and the date of first one that clearly did show it? 

[TEPaul]

"Why would he be out at "some hot pick-up joint"?What exactly would he be picking up?"

Jeff:

Well, with Patrick I can guarantee you it ain't hot takeout food! What happens in places like Vegas, stay in places like Vegas and believe me, Patrick knows all those places intimately.

As for me, I don't know places like that much at all and even though I do admit they certainly have their meretricious allure for some, I find them ultimately to be the vulgar underbelly of civilization inhabited by the demimonde and rakes such like.
 
 
 

[JMEvensky]

"Why would he be out at "some hot pick-up joint"?What exactly would he be picking up?"

Jeff:

Well, with Patrick I can guarantee you it ain't hot takeout food! What happens in places like Vegas, stay in places like Vegas and believe me, Patrick knows all those places intimately.

As for me, I don't know places like that much at all and even though I do admit they certainly have their meretricious allure for some, I find them ultimately to be the vulgar underbelly of civilization inhabited by the demimonde and rakes such like.
 
 
 

Meretricious AND demimonde in the same sentence.You are officially on a roll.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

As for me, I prefer to stay at home and read Rupert Brooke poetry before I turn in early so I can rise early and like the Bird of Freedom and Resource catch the proverbial early worm. Or is it the early chipmunk? Whatever.
 
 
 

[TEPaul]

"Meretricious AND demimonde in the same sentence.You are officially on a roll."


That is true, my good man and as the great Winston Churchill said: "Like the Mighty Mississippi, let it ROLL, let it ROLL ON FULL FLOOD and BENEFICENT!"

PS:
But unlike the Mighty Winston, believe it or not I haven't even had my first glass of wine or champagne yet, and to think it will be my bedtime in Philadelphia in a little less than 12 hours. Opps, sorry, I didn't check the cuckoo; make that 10 hours.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"In terms of ascertaining the date of origin, I would think that dated photos will probably pinpoint that date, then, working backwards you can determine who was President, Superintendent and Green Chair if the position existed.  You might also be able to ascertain which consulting architects visited PV prior to the creation of the D.A."


Patrick:

First of all I can pretty much tell you who the president, superintendent and Green Chair was at any point in time back then but on what you said about ascertaining the date of origin of the DA by working backwards with photographs, have you even been following what's been written on this thread?

YES

Can you even tell me the app date of the one available photograph that clearly showed that hole without that bunker and the date of first one that clearly did show it?  

YES.

Having a "range" within which the photo falls isn't good enough.
You/we need to identify the precise year, without fear of contradiction

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Regarding your response in #156---KNOWLEDGE and BEANS?

And in WAR headline sized print and bright red letters no less?

Did Deb give you warm paplum for dinner and did you ingest it by mistake straight through your nose and right into you brain that's been more than a bit suspect anyway for some time now?

What on earth does KNOWLEDGE and BEANS mean?? BEANS?? what kind of beans?

[TEPaul]

By the way I appreciate your second response in #162 and particularly the soft cuddly pink color context you put it in. That is one of the best examples of an attempt at Internet textual soft pillow-talk I've ever seen. I don't think it would be too awful, do you, for me to admit on here that it shows how you have secretly always felt about me?

[Rick Sides]

I'm just throwing a strange idea out there, but any possibility that George Thomas may be responsible for the D.A.?  We know Thomas had an influential hand in the design of Pine Valley and he liked creating unique, almost comical traits in some of his holes.  Think about the 6th hole at Riviera with that bunker in the middle of the green.  Thomas also features the D.A. in his book and mentions the importance  a deep bunker can play near a green.  Just food for thought.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Regarding your response in #156---KNOWLEDGE and BEANS?

And in WAR headline sized print and bright red letters no less?

What on earth does KNOWLEDGE and BEANS mean??

BEANS?? what kind of beans?


What kind of beans you ask ?

Well, I'll tell you ....... Great looking Human Beans with big T's     

[TEPaul]

"Well, I'll tell you ....... Great looking Human Beans with big T's"    
 
 
 





Ah, Jeesus, Patrick, you're too damn much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It's possible that Crump had the concept in his head, but, when he initially crafted the golf course the DA was not included in the construction.

It initially appears as an offset bunker detached from the bank and green and eventually migrates right into the green.

With Crump's death in 1918, it appears to have appeared and completed its migration after he was gone, so someone else had to construct the original.  The migration and reconfiguration had to be done by someone else as well.

The contrast with the initial photo posted by JMorgan and the photos on page 60 and 215 of Geoff Shackleford's and Hunter's books is quite striking, and, in complete contrast to what exists today.

It's a nice mystery to try to solve.

We should focus on other famous architectural features and try to determine how they came into existance and evolved into what they are today.

P.S.  we will get to Philly this season.

[archie_struthers]

 

Lots of pictures up at Pine Valley clubhouse that show the changes to the architecture, however they are not for the most part dated, making analysis fairly difficult . It's  a fairly logical assumption that the disjointed DA predated the attached one, so we're going to figure this out pretty soon.....I've got the carbon dating info coming soon   !

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
It's possible that Crump had the concept in his head, but, when he initially crafted the golf course the DA was not included in the construction."


Pat:

I don't see how you or anyone can credibly or conclusively make that statement. If that little round red circle on the "blue/red line" topo map in the position the DA came to be in represents what would be that bunker or was that bunker during Crump's time at Pine Valley then it can be assumed the concept was Crump's. The red-line drawings are Crump's, at least a very good assumption can be made that they are for all kinds of factual and historic reasons.

The problem for us at the moment is there does not seem to be any photographic evidence of the area of that bunker between about late 1913 or early 1914 and the first photo of the bunker in app. 1923. But the fact that there is no photographic evidence of that area in that time span does not necessarily mean that bunker was not there in that time span.

By my calculation and study of the creation of PV during Crump's lifetime pretty much everything in red drawn on that map had been constructed before Crump died on Jan. 24, 1918. I don't see why that little round red circle in the position of the DA should necessarily be considered an exception to that fact.

[TEPaul]

"With Crump's death in 1918, it appears to have appeared and completed its migration after he was gone, so someone else had to construct the original.  The migration and reconfiguration had to be done by someone else as well.

The contrast with the initial photo posted by JMorgan and the photos on page 60 and 215 of Geoff Shackleford's and Hunter's books is quite striking, and, in complete contrast to what exists today.

It's a nice mystery to try to solve."


Pat:

I think what we are looking for first is when that bunker in that position first appeared as something resembling a bunker. If we can logically get that date into Crump's lifetime then it can probably be assumed the idea was his, and in that vein I really don't think we can discount the significance of that little round red circle on the "blue/red line" topo map in the area the DA would be in or was in during his lifetime. As I just said there was little to nothing on that course that was drawn in in red that was not constructed in his lifetime.

Next as far as what you call the bunker migrating we can look into that next over any time span. We surely do know that Crump changed many things out there during his app five years working on the course with Govan pretty much all the time and the record shows had he lived it was his intention to keep on changing things on that course until he felt he finally got it right. There is a very fine chronicle compiled by his two closest friends down there what he intended to do had he lived. There is also that famous remark one of those two men closest to him that when Crump would be asked why he was taking so long and when he would finally finish the course he would bellow "NEVER!!"



"Lots of pictures up at Pine Valley clubhouse that show the changes to the architecture, however they are not for the most part dated, making analysis fairly difficult."

Depending on any particular picture, and certainly of PV there are all kinds of nuancy and interesting little ways to get photos into a pretty tight timespan if it is undated. That's some of the finer points of what historical architectural analysis is all about. There are a fair number of people who have some pretty good experience at it but of course being intimately familiar with the golf course and all the details of its history in any given time is sort of essential otherwise one wouldn't even know what to be looking at or for.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

To date, I don't think the color coded schematic provides concrete/conclusive evidence with respect to any aspect of the DA bunker.

Patrick,

It looks like a red circle drawn along/over/adjacent to fomerly drawn blue lines to me, but the tough part is the more I blow it up, the less distinct it becomes and the colors tend to blur.

I think I'd need to look at the original to say for sure what I think, but if indeed a red circle is drawn atop a former blue drawing that would seem pretty strong evidence to me that Crump wanted a separate little circular bunker in that location.

As far as fun investigations, I completely agree.

I haven't had this much fun since Bryan Izatt measured the acreage of the original Merion property although for the life of me I can't recall what conclusion we all came to from that herculean exercise and labor on Bryan's part...   

[Mike Cirba]

btw..how cool would the 10th be with the green configured gourd-like as in that drawing with the DA in the position drawn?   

Can you imagine a front hole location?   

[TEPaul]

"btw..how cool would the 10th be with the green configured gourd-like as in that drawing with the DA in the position drawn?  
Can you imagine a front hole location?"


It does seem to be a cool "gourd-like" shape to that green as drawn on that "blue/red line" topo map and on Colt's individual hole drawing in his booklet which is vaguely similar to the shape on the B/R topo map (Colt's green shape in his booklet is nowhere near as gourd-shaped as the green on the B/R map, even though Colt's shape is nonetheless interesting as it appears the green or at least that front area which is not now green may go right around the entire front of the left bunker to create a sort of shallow perpindicular peninsula of greenspace!). Frankly, I don't think that front area that some on here assume may've been greenspace was ever intended to be that for the reasons given in the following.

We need to remember we are basically looking at this in only two dimensions---eg length and width and we cannot see or appreciate the vertical dimension in that seemingly front greenspace area on both drawings. Again, I don't think any of it in that front area was ever intended to be front greenspace and especially with this particular green and its topographical surrounds either pre-construction or afterwards.

The reason seems to be that originally that area may've been naturally pretty vertical or else Crump decided to make it that way by basically cutting fill out and down on the right, front and left of that green and maybe even somewhat in the rear.

On that note there is some Rosetta Stone items on that map and on Crump's first map that could confirm or deny the foregoing and that is that "blue/red Line" topo map, as well as the topo counter map Crump used before Colt got there, does have contour lines on them but unfortunately given the age and wear and tear on both maps those contour lines tend to be very faint and difficult to pick-up and follow. It is just about impossible ot pick them up on a photograph----you pretty much need to get very close to the originals to have any chance of picking them up and following them (actually they may've even been quite faint originally from the surveyor as you may be able to notice that for some reason Colt seems to have drawn over and followed a few of them prominently with his blue pencil).

If and when I go down there again I will make a note to look around the tenth green on those two topo contour maps (anyone interested in this who goes down there should) because we have to remember those contour lines were drawn before anything at all was done architecturally down there as far as moving any earth---those two maps show the natural contours before PV or Crump did anything to that site. But if we can see and follow those pre-construction contour lines it could tell us if that area where the little red circle is drawn and where the DA now is had like a natural 20-25% incline/decline on it before that green was built. We certaily do know that area has that much incline/decline or more to it now and after that green and its surrounds was constructed.  

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