[John Kirk]

The 8th hole at the National Golf Links in Southampton, NY is called The Bottle hole.  Here is Ran Morrissett's description of the Bottle:

8th hole, 420 yards, Bottle; Fairway bunkers (i.e.bunkers that are surrounded on all sides by fairway) are a crucial component to any strategic design. Yet, greater than 95% of the courses built since WWII don't possess a single fairway bunker. Instead, modern architects placed the hazards on the sides of the fairways where they add little strategic value. Patterned after Willie Parks' 12th at Sunningdale (Old) which opened in 1899, this strong two shotter is the only hole that Nick Faldo bogeyed on his tour of the course in 1986. An echelon of seven bunkers encroaches into the fairway from the lower left and effectively divides the fairway into a left and right portion in the landing area off the tee. While the right side may be the more direct route, the left side provides a more level stance and a better angle into the green.

It occurred to me recently that the 407 yard 2nd hole at Kinloch Golf Club is a Bottle hole.  The wide fairway is separated by a family of three bunkers.  The smaller left half of the fairway can be reached with a solid drive, yielding the better approach angle, especially to right hand pin positions.  The right half of the fairway is about 10 feet below the left half.

The tee shot tends to make me very decisive about what I want to do.  If I'm playing well, I'll try to carry to the left side, but if I don't have my "A" game, I will either aim right for a straight ball, or try to start the ball at the bunkers, and let it fade back to the right fairway.  It's a fun shot.  Here are two photos of Kinloch #2:
 




Kinloch's greens ae generally kept very fast, so contours are subtle.  At hole #2, the green is relatively flat, with some slope on the front.  In general you don't want to be long or left.  Ran's profile does not offer a complete photo profile of the hole, but here is the approach shot, showing the deep bunkers 15-20 yards short of the green, and the huge dropoff to the right:



If I remember correctly, the Bottle green at NGLA is large and also features subtle contours.  I'll never forget how I played the hole.  The tee shot at NGLA sets up very similar to the Kinloch version, and after some thought, I decided to hit driver down the right side, and take the short shot with the bad angle.  But I pulled my tee shot at the bunkers.  Fearing the worst, I watched eagerly as my ball just missed one of the bunkers, and skipped up to the garden spot, 135 yards away.  The pin was back right. Since my characteristic miss is a pull or draw, I aimed right at it, but pushed my approach by a few yards.  The ball bounced sideways, and ended up at 20-25 feet below the green, and though I made a good pitch, I two putted from 35 feet for bogey.

The Kinloch Bottle hole is less severe at the green.  If you miss right pin high, you're about even with the green, but short right is 8-10 feet low.  Also, the hole has a standard front right bunker, not the severe fronting and left bunkers shown in the NGLA photo.

First, I'm hoping Lester George will see this, since he has been around regularly.  Lester, did you intend on building a Bottle hole here?

Second, I'm hoping this will give the Macdonald template hole enthusiasts something to talk about.  I do not believe the Bottle hole will be used at the Old Macdonald project.

[rjsimper]

John,
How long is the carry to the left fairway over the first and second bunkers, respectively?

Is the risk of that shot at Kinloch comparable to the risk at NGLA?  It looks as if even though you'd be bunkered in the either of the first two traps, that the recovery from those is not nearly as difficult as from the third (which may not be reachable from the tee it sounds?)

[Steve Lapper]

John:

    A great example and topic. One of the immediate differences that appears when comparing past experiences at NGLA to the Kinloch hole is the abundance of severe trouble just immediately off the NGLA green and the appearing lack of such at Kinloch. At NGLA, the pit-like bunkers to the left of the green and the steep hillside bank along the green's right side demand a hazard-avoiding. precise second shot. Additonaly, there is a pretty good tilt left-to-right and back-to-front on the NGLA green. A clearer and straight shot is rewarded to the drive that safely carries the fairway bunkers at NGLA, thus lifting the risk-reward quotient significantly higher. I can't quite tell from your Kinloch photos, but it appears that this equation doesn't appear there. Can you comment on the severity of recovery around the green. I do think that plays a rich role in a golfer's decision process attacking this kind of architectural strategy.

[John Kirk]

Hey Steve.  I agree on all fronts.  In order to make a 4 that day a NGLA, I should have hit pitching wedge and aimed for the center of the large green, leaving a long uphill, left to right putt.  But I was feeling it!

The tee shot at Kinloch offers many of the same risk and reward parameters.  You can see what you are doing from the left side.  As you can see in the picture, the left side is crowned, uphill, flat, then downhill for really long tee balls.  From the right side, the most common stance is flat to sidehill, with ball below feet, especially near the bunkers.  The second shot plays a few yards uphill from the right, especially when you have 140 or more in.

Short game play at Kinloch always requires precision, because the greens are so fast.  The ball rolls out no matter where you are, but on this hole, the really tough short shots are from left of the green down to the front.  A running "bump and run" works well from left of the green to right pins, and most other short shots are pitches.  In addition, the bluegrass rough is quite long with big blades, and this often alters strategy.

This is one of the easier par fours at Kinloch, where I imagine the 8th at NGLA is one of the harder par fours.

Ryan,

The length of carry is what you would expect, medium long but short enough to tempt you.  I usually play the hole from the second box at about 395.  A 215 carry will get you to the left edge, 235 into a good position, and Sammy Sikes clears everything with a 255-260 carry.

Guys, I'm going to have to leave for a few hours, but will defintely check back in then.

[corey miller]

I have not played Kinloch but just based on the photo it seems that the left fairway almost looks easier to hit than the right.  I am not sure I get the same feeling at NGLA.

[Garland Bayley]

Not knowing bottle holes much, I looked up George Bahto's definition in his first interview. The questions they raise is a) is one side of the fairway raised? b) is the green raised?

[John Kirk]

Corey,

The right side of the fairway is about twice as wide.  The left side is smaller but not real difficult to hit.  My sense was the size of each half of the fairway was about the same as NGLA.  Remember this is not one of the more difficult holes on the course, an easy Bottle hole.

The photograph cuts off part of the right fairway.  A mistake I've made before at Kinloch is to aim right and then miss it right, into the deep rough or trees.  That can happen.

Garland,

The left side is raised about 8-10 feet higher than the right side.  The walk to the green is gently uphill at the end, so the green is raised slightly, but nothing like the NGLA Bottle green.  I'm telling you Garland, I blocked  my approach about 5-7 yards right, and it ended up 20 yards right and 25 feet below the hole.  Huge dropoff.

[Bill_McBride]

John (and Lester), that's a neat hole.  If you play safely to the right side, is there enough left to right in the green contours to play left of the greenside bunker and still roll to the back center of the green?  If not, there is a huge premium to playing the left fairway to a back pin.

[Matt Waterbury]

John and Lester,

Looks like a beautiful hole - I've always enjoyed the options provided by bunkers in the middle of a fairway.

We have a similar hole at my home club in Boston. One of the interesting differences with the hole at Black Rock is that the easier shot off the tee (if you have modest distance) is actually to carry the bunkers to the left, rather than try to avoid them going right. However, the green is fairly trecherous, and much more accepting of an approach from the right.

A couple details you can't see in the Google image: 1) missing fairway right is dead (15ft drop into marsh/woods), 2) green is slightly elevated (left bunker is 8 ft below green level) and 3) green is two tiered with a ridge through the middle, sloping significantly to front and back from middle.



Cheers,
mjw

[John Kirk]

Hello Bill,

The answer to your question is no.  I suppose if a weaker player with a controlled slice had a long shot into the green, the contours might kick it a little right.  But the general answer is no.

Matt,

Isn't Black Rock a Brian Silva course?  If so, that may be an interpretation of the Bottle design, but with completely different shot values.  The left side is clearly the better approach on both NGLA and Kinloch.

[Lester George]

John,

I just returned to my office after a very long day.  I will give insight to this tomorrow.  Thanks for an interesting post.

Lester

[Matt Waterbury]

Matt,

Isn't Black Rock a Brian Silva course?  If so, that may be an interpretation of the Bottle design, but with completely different shot values.  The left side is clearly the better approach on both NGLA and Kinloch.

John,

Yes, Black Rock is Brian Silva. Your point is exactly why I posted the picture for discussion. Not sure if there was any deliberate attempt to interpret a specific design/template, but the shared elements are clear. To the average golfer the holes appear very similar, but, as you correctly note, with experience one will play them very differently.

Cheers,
mjw

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  That certainly looks like a Bottle hole to me, and a good one.  And I'm sure that Brian Silva is familiar enough with the concept that it's not just an accidental resemblance.

John K:  We actually do have a spot for a Bottle hole in Bandon.  It'll be the par-4 tenth hole.  However, I am not sure we will do the bunkering exactly the same.  There are some natural slots for bunkers in the terrain, and it may be hard to set up the alley on the right.

By the way, I disagree with you that the best route at National is to the left off the tee.  If you're on the right, you can hit away from that 25-foot drop on the right side of the green which you found by accident.  Also, George Bahto will come on later to note that the tee for the 8th at National was originally behind and to the left of #7 green, so the carry to the left was easier, and the line down the right-hand side was tighter, with the fairway sloping toward the trees (much like Matt's description of the hole at Black Rock).

[BVince]

John, thanks for posting the pictures and starting this thread on one of my favorite holes.  The right side is more forgiving than the picture appears.  Hitting it to the right of the bunker still affords the opportunity to hit the green.  However, don't go too far right or you risk being partially blocked out by the tall trees.  Hitting it on the left tier of the fairway offers a better angle into the green, especially the back right pin, but is a more difficult and demanding tee shot.  For only your second hole, it can be an intimidating task.  The bunkers are not easily carryable and would probably demand a carry of 290+ to clear the far fairway binker.  Left of the green is a depression that makes chip shots into the green slightly more challenging.

IMHO, Kinloch is still not rated high as it should be.  This is truly a special place and Lester did a wonderful job with the routing to capture the highlights of the property.

[Adam_Messix]

I know Charlie Staples is smiling reading this thread. 

It's funny, but I have never tried to drive it into the left fairway on #2, I just don't feel like I gain much, this is the same with 8 at NGLA. 

Kinloch was designed with faster greens speeds in mind, so they couldn't go for quite as severe a green site as at National.  It's still a difficult par if you miss the green by more than a yard and for some reason it's easy to go long here. 

In general, there's a lot to love about Kinloch outside of the incredible condition that Peter Wendt always has the place in....lots of decision making, strategy, and multiple options in attacking certain greens.  Great stuff!

[John Kirk]

Tom,

Interesting how the right side seems best to you.  You may be right, but I still don't see it.  Yes, you can hit your approach away from the big dropoff, but you are hitting at the high side of the green.  If you pull left into the greenside bunker, that's probably also death (well, a bogey anyway), as the bunker is deep and the green slopes away.

So it may be a matter of the mind's eye, and how each player sees the shot.  The average player can slice two shots onto the green, using the right side.  I tend to draw or pull approach shots.  From the left side, I ca see better what I'm doing, and I'm pulling or curving the ball away from the dropoff.  From the right side, I think my misses would tend to cause me more trouble.

Also, isn't it true that the right fairway of the NGLA Bottle is both wider and more undulating?

Best kind of design.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I struggle to see a strong playing resemblance in these holes you are talking about to the 12th at Sunningdale Old however.

I guess if you apply the word "patterned" loosely, then I can understand it.... But the bunkers come in to play on a different shot for a start...

[Lester George]

John,

I'm not sure I intentionally set out to do a Bottle Hole, but I did recognize very quickly that this portion of the property would support a risk/reward hole well. 

I always go for the left (I'm a sucker for my own stuff) and usually make par from there.  If for some reason I over swing or block it, I can recover from the right.  I recently (in the last month) moved the left edge of the green front bunker further left and closer to the green to make it a little more daunting from the right.

All-in-all, the second at Kinloch turned out just the way I wanted it.  It gets lots of compliments to this day.

Thank you all for such an interesting thread.

Lester

[John Kirk]

Peter Wendt, Kinloch superintendent adds these comments to the thread:

"We have expanded the greenside bunker this winter.  It is tucked up and flashed closer to the green and it has been pulled further back toward the tee.

Personally, I feel like this really emphasizes trying to carry the bunkers and hitting your approach shot from the left fairway when the pin is back and right.

We have taken out both walk bridges on #2 to ease the walkability, and we are transplanting broom sedge in the native area to give it a more uniform look."

Thanks for all the responses.  I will try to do one more Kinloch hole (#16) before once again limiting myself to wise ass remarks.

[Garland Bayley]

John,

I'm not sure I intentionally set out to do a Bottle Hole, but I did recognize very quickly that this portion of the property would support a risk/reward hole well. 

I always go for the left (I'm a sucker for my own stuff) and usually make par from there.  If for some reason I over swing or block it, I can recover from the right.  I recently (in the last month) moved the left edge of the green front bunker further left and closer to the green to make it a little more daunting from the right.

All-in-all, the second at Kinloch turned out just the way I wanted it.  It gets lots of compliments to this day.

Thank you all for such an interesting thread.

Lester

Lester,

You have me confused! "the second at Kinloch turned out just the way I wanted it" and "I recently (in the last month) moved the left edge of the green front bunker further left and closer to the green"? It turned out just the way you wanted it, so you modified it?
 

[Jimmy Muratt]

When playing conservatively up the right side off of the tee, you must be careful not to flirt too much with the far right side of the fairway.  The overhanging trees on the right side can definitely interfere with the preferred line, especially with a back right hole location. 

While I usually go up the left side, you can definitely pay the price if you don't hit the fairway.  The rough at Kinloch is very dense and controlling iron shots out of it can be very difficult, especially with the firm and very fast greens. 

Another thing to mention is that I personally find the green on #2 one of the most difficult to putt.  It is full of subtle breaks and the discussed back right hole location can make a two-putt a tough proposition from much of the green.

[Lester George]

Garland,

It turned out just the way I wanted it, and I modified it.  The tree that Jimmy Murratt talks about that somewhat guards the right side is looking less than healthy and the front left edge of the bunker needed adjusting to contemplate that tree dying.  Wasn't trying to confuse, but don't expect you to understand either.

Jimmy,

You make good points, especially about the subtleties of that green which the caddies say is on of the hardest to putt.  Thanks for your perspective.

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

Lester:

Just curious -- is there something you did deliberately on that green that makes it hard to putt, or did it just work out that way?

The odds would be about 50/50 with me, working on greens in the dirt.  Sometimes we will shape a green and then when we go to survey it, it isn't sloping at all like it looks or like the operator thought ... but if it drains and it's not too severe, we'll leave it alone, knowing it's going to fool a lot of other people, too.

[Lester George]

Tom,

This green is one of those that I definitely tried to get very subtle changes in the final shaping.  Very in-distinguishable contours.  Sometimes I just stay on one until it looks and feels like there isn't much there and they turn out with the subtleties that Jimmy is talking about. 

Or, I could just be full of crap and got lucky with that one, who knows. 

The 4th at Kinloch is even harder to read in my opinion and that one really jumps out at me but some people just can't see it.  I think it has a lot to do with where your looking at it from when final shaping and floating. 

Lester

[Lester George]

Tom,

Send an e-mail to lester@georgegolfdesign.com so I can send you some pictures.

Lester

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