[Patrick_Mucci]

of golf.


Why don't modern day designers leave unusual topography in place when building a golf course ?


When's the last time you played a fairway with two deep trenches, at opposing angles, in the middle of the fairway ?

[Rob Marshall]

Can someone post a picture please?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rob,


The trench's depth varies from 4 to 6 to 8 feet.


The left center trench runs parallel to the fairway while the other trench runs on about a 70 degree diagonal and intersects on the left side of the fairway.


The diagonal bunker guarding the right side of the green makes approaches from the left side of the fairway the preferred angle of attack, but the trenches are at their maximum depth on the left side.


A real risk/reward situation

[Rob Marshall]

I looked at a rendering on the course website. Is it cut as fairway?

[Jackson C]

Trench is deep but is wide enough to get a flat lie and uninhibited albeit blind shot.
Memorable hole and feature.

[Gib_Papazian]

My thought is #14 at Pasatiempo shares a similar strategic perspective from the standpoint of partial blindness and that uncomfortable feeling of not quite being certain of the target line. If you smash a drive (short dicks need not apply), the culvert meanders along far enough that players get a half-ass look at the target.

Go back 20 paces (read: short hitting Armenians) and it resembles hitting it right or left on #16 at NGLA, missing it right on #2 (same golf course) - or the pit of perdition waiting on #16 at Mid Ocean pushing it a tick right.     

[Bill_McBride]

The last time I hit that green in two was during the 2004 Kings Putter.  I hooked my drive into the half pipe and found a nice flat lie in the bottom.  The angle is perfect from down there, hit a 6 iron into the middle of the green. The angle is much more awkward from the center or right side of the fairway.  It's really an underrated hole in the middle of a superb nine holes. 

[Jordan Standefer]

Rob, it is fairway.  This is the best shot I have from the approach, but the picture doesn't really do the topography justice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

YES
I looked at a rendering on the course website. Is it cut as fairway?

[Kye Goalby]

There is a pretty good photo of contour in  the 14th fairway in my  "GCA Feature Interview" from May 2010

[John Cowden]

I read/heard somewhere during the Doak/Urbina restoration that no. 14 was Doak's favorite on the course.  Is that true?  The tee shot must be played to the left of the swail, which is a small landing area, for the best angle into the green; can somebody tell me if that's it's strategic allure?  I usually just bomb it down the middle, hopefully, swale be damned.  I've never minded hitting from the swale, or even from its sides.

[Bill_McBride]

I read/heard somewhere during the Doak/Urbina restoration that no. 14 was Doak's favorite on the course.  Is that true?  The tee shot must be played to the left of the swail, which is a small landing area, for the best angle into the green; can somebody tell me if that's it's strategic allure?  I usually just bomb it down the middle, hopefully, swale be damned.  I've never minded hitting from the swale, or even from its sides.

I've never seen anyone left of the swale.  There are trees over there.....

[John Cowden]

Too true, Bill.  Poison oak, too, but there is indeed fairway between the gunch and the swale.  My sense is that the swale was part of the barranca that fronts 15 and along the left of 16, but cleared and seeded.  The routing of the course is frickin' amazing. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

There is a pretty good photo of contour in  the 14th fairway in my  "GCA Feature Interview" from May 2010

Here it is:



Here is another view.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kevin,


Great photos, THANKS


I'm not so sure that the entire swale is visible from the tee.


While an approach from the left side gives you the best angle into the green, go a little too far left and you've got great trouble

[Jordan Standefer]

Why don't modern day designers leave unusual topography in place when building a golf course ?

I believe #13 at Bandon Dunes would qualify.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here is another view.



 
Thanks again for posting these photos.
 
Look at the depth of these troughs.
 
Look at the extent/length of these troughs.
 
Look at how they intersect.
 
They are architecturally exquisite.
 
Why don't we see more of this in modern design.
 
Does anyone object to this "quirk" ?

[Mark Fedeli]

I think it's a great half-hazard. For those who hit the ball low, the steepness of the trough walls are enough to make you nervous if you're hitting from down in them. The ground is obviously also a bit softer/wetter at the bottom, which can be a bit nerve-wracking for diggers. Couple all that with the blindness and it's a terrific mental hurdle (for some).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,
 
California is experiencing a serious drought.
 
In restaurants they can't serve you water unless you request it.
 
There wasn't a trace of water anywhere on the course when we played, ergo, it was next to impossible for a ball to stop on the downslope.
 
One of the things that make it challenging to most golfers is that they've never seen or played from a feature like this.
 
I had a slightly uphill lie so I had to take more club and I was into the wind.
 
With the diagonal front bunker guarding that green, playing to the left, the deeper portion of those troughs, is the optimal play.
 
Great risk reward, great tee shot requirement and great second shot requirement.
 
A wonderful and unique golf hole.

[Mark Fedeli]

Pat, sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that the steepness of the walls are intimidating if you're hitting from down in the bottom of the trough. It does feel like you need to get it up quick, which is disconcerting for a low ball hitter.


I was in the very bottom of one of them in August of last year, at the very height of the drought situation there, and it was probably the most moist spot on the course. Not wet or soggy by any means, but the bottom of the trough is obviously where any water will head.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Always loved it, too. Have tried to incorporate it a few times, most notably 12th hole at the Quarry.  However, by the time I try to make it practical, with slightly softer slopes for mowing, a few basins to limit long flows down the channel, etc., it didn't get quite the same charm.

So, I guess you could say the superintendent objected to the quirk, at least this sharp. I have never heard a lot from players, which actually sort of surprises me.  My best guess is that in most cases, if this angled hazard was a sand or rough grass bunker, no one would think anything about it, but many would question why they had such a funky lie in the fairway.

I have done similar holes, such as 5 at Cowboys, where the FW was wide, but contained mounds and rolls, and within a year, or at the first super change at the latest, since the new guy isn't briefed, the stronger contours go out into the rough.

It is a nice bit of quirk, though.  Maybe my next course will present such an opportunity.

[Jason Topp]

The 5th hole at my course - Windsong Farm - has a similar feature.  The left side is the best angle to the green but the ground there has a less severe trough that yields lies that alter the shot just enough to induce misses.
I would think these types of features would tend to collect water.  I do not recall the swale at Pasatiempo being significantly softer than the rest of the course any of the times I have played it.  Are there internal drains?  Does the land slope enough to take care of the issue?  I recall that hole being relatively flat compared to the rest of the course.  Of course, the hole might seem flat on that course and still have a fair amount of slope.
The Windsong trough is on enough of a slope that it never seems to be a problem.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I would imagine that you have to have excellent drainage, runoff and subsoil in order to introduce that feature, but, it sure is neat.

Almost unlike anything I've seen, save for the racetrack banks at Somerset and Piping Rock.

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