[Ronald Montesano]

It was a drizzly day, this particular 11th of July, 2021. The skies finally cleared around 5 pm, exposing a beautiful background fronted by lead clouds. By then, I had returned to my room at the Hawthorn Suites by Wyndham, a wretched place in Miamisburg that I would recommend only to those I wished to lose as friends. Enough about me; on to the course.

One of two Dick Wilson designs on the NCR property, the South course was my first on the day. The reason was simple: club championship on the North! The NCR property is adjacent to Moraine, so the topography is nearly identical. What Wilson did with the NCR land is quite different from what Alex "Nipper" Campbell (not to be confused with Alex "Slapshot" Campbell) did at Moraine.

As indicated in another thread, I have a new lens and I'm thrilled with what I've been able to capture. These first six photos are not from that lens. They are from my short set-up: mirrorless Canon and short lens.

[JLahrman]

NCR South can really beat the crap out of you.

[Ronald Montesano]

It is the outside-tournament course, correct? Might explain why the club championships were held on the North course. I love their tee markers: cute little cash registers.

[goldj]

Ron,

Have they removed a lot of trees?  I was there a few years back and while I was bowled over by the movement of the property, do not recall the vistas that you show in your pictures.

[Ronald Montesano]

As I drove in past the north course, I was struck by how open it was. If the South course looks open, wait until you see the X-C vistas of the North course. I would not doubt that nearly every club across America has undertaken a comprehensive tree removal plan. The ones that have not, would have as difficult a time defending their decision as, say, folks who refuse certain vaccines.

[Tim Martin]

I would not doubt that nearly every club across America has undertaken a comprehensive tree removal plan. The ones that have not, would have as difficult a time defending their decision as, say, folks who refuse certain vaccines.

Plenty of courses “across America” have not undertaken a comprehensive tree program. Additionally to conflate tree removal with people who choose not to get the vaccine is quite a stretch. Tree removal has a fat price tag in many cases whereas the vaccine is gratis.

[JLahrman]

Ron,

Have they removed a lot of trees?  I was there a few years back and while I was bowled over by the movement of the property, do not recall the vistas that you show in your pictures.

I played NCR South in 2008. These pictures look the way I recall the course, though it could be a combination of bad memory and the fact that I only played the course once. I never played the North course (looks like Ron started a separate thread for that one) but driving into the club the North course definitely looked to have far more (EDIT: FEWER, sorry) trees than the South.


Not sure if they've done any tree removal - while I don't remember the South course being in great need of tree removal, all NCR has to do is look next door at Moraine for a case study as to why it should be considered.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played both courses with the GM 25 years ago. The South course has held some very prestigious championships. I could still play a bit and the South Course beat me up. I really enjoyed the course. The terrain is terrific and the green sites excellent. I don't remember thinking that the trees encroached on the playing corridors. The North Course was good but not in the same league as the South. I didn't realize that Moraine was right next door. It's a great club.

[Ronald Montesano]

If you visit my Instagram (@buffalogolfer) you'll see a few iPhone shots from the perimeter of the Moraine club. It has amazing access from the roadside. Plenty of opportunity to drool.


If the North looked over-treed back in the day, they have certainly done some removal. I couldn't help but notice how far across the course I could see, and the views were the same from down below. I think that Louis Sibbett "PP" Wilson (how he got the nickname "Dick" is a story worth uncovering) should be proud of these two courses. He might have easily designed the North to be as demanding as the South, but did not. Perhaps that was his marching order, perhaps he understood club memberships with 36 holes.

[JLahrman]

I didn't realize that Moraine was right next door. It's a great club.

Tommy, Moraine and NCR share an entry road, it's hard to believe that you could have missed Moraine when you pulled into NCR UNLESS the tree situation was that bad at Moraine 25 years ago. I don't think Moraine has a big ol' sign out front but you must have passed it unless there is another entrance to NCR through the adjacent neighborhood that I don't know about. And nowadays you should be able to see the first few holes at Moraine when you drive back into NCR. But again, maybe the trees were that bad 25 years ago that they were obscuring the holes, or perhaps you thought you were seeing a few of NCR's holes.

[Ronald Montesano]

I had to leave NCR, drive down the hill farther toward the medical complex, make a left, to arrive at Moraine. I understand how Tommy could have not known Moraine was adjacent. I knew it because of Google Maps. When facing Moraine, you have roads left and right that ascend the central moraine. Each offers wonderful views of the course, across a split-rail fence.

[JLahrman]

One question I have about the South course...from my one play of the course, #9 and #18 are parallel holes and are both longish dogleg left par 4s. #8 and #17 are also roughly parallel. The 8th green fed right into the...18th tee. And the 17th green fed right into the...9th tee. So golfers coming off of 8 and 17 would cross each other in an X shape to get to their hole.


Does anybody know why the holes were routed this way? I was playing in a tournament that day, maybe they had rerouted us for the tournament for some unknown reason. But if that's the normal routing, it doesn't seem to make much sense. Seems like 9 and 18 could be exchanged since they are so similar.


Only thing I can come up with is the cart barn is closer to the 18th hole than the 9th, so if they exchanged the holes the golfers returning their carts would have to either cut back behind the 9th green or would have to take a big lap around the clubhouse. I can't think of another reason.

[Tim Martin]

One question I have about the South course...from my one play of the course, #9 and #18 are parallel holes and are both longish dogleg left par 4s. #8 and #17 are also roughly parallel. The 8th green fed right into the...18th tee. And the 17th green fed right into the...9th tee. So golfers coming off of 8 and 17 would cross each other in an X shape to get to their hole.


Does anybody know why the holes were routed this way? I was playing in a tournament that day, maybe they had rerouted us for the tournament for some unknown reason. But if that's the normal routing, it doesn't seem to make much sense. Seems like 9 and 18 could be exchanged since they are so similar.


Only thing I can come up with is the cart barn is closer to the 18th hole than the 9th, so if they exchanged the holes the golfers returning their carts would have to either cut back behind the 9th green or would have to take a big lap around the clubhouse. I can't think of another reason.

They have it marked on the cart path with arrows which way to go to 9 and 18 but it’s easy to miss. I agree without some guidance that I would have thought 9 was 18 and 18 was 9.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ha ha ha...I photographed 18, thinking it was 9. I looked at the map, realized my mistake, drove back, shot 9, then 10, and so forth.


9 green is adjacent to 10 tee. That facility makes the choice easy. If you were to play 18 as 9, you would either drive around the steep backdrop of current 9 green to get to 10, or you would go out of your way by the clubhouse to get to 10 tee.

[Joe_Tucholski]

It is the outside-tournament course, correct? Might explain why the club championships were held on the North course. I love their tee markers: cute little cash registers.

Ron it's a bummer it was wet.  The soil doesn't do great with rain.


The club championship definitely isn't on the North course.  There is a north course club championship but that's just one of the club events and not the main event.


I hate to admit it but I was a member for more than a year before a guest made mention of the cash register tees.  Before that I hadn't realized that's what they were.


Regarding tree removal.  There hasn't been extensive removal.  I think it was around 2017 when a Hurdzan did some bunker work.  They also took out a couple tree's in the inside dogleg of 3 and 4 (none of Ron's photos).


Personally I don't think tree removal is needed.  While it's not popular currently I think the course is a great example of 1950's design.  While it's tough I rarely lost balls.  It's a good walk and the landscape is full of trees.  The course provides opportunities to play things safe if desired or to take risk for some reward.  When Moraine re-opened to the high praise and moved ahead in rankings there were some people who talked about doing lots of work to keep up.  I'm glad it didn't happen.  I don't think there is a need to try and be something that the course isn't in order to stay with the trends.  I was happy with what the course was.  I also rarely felt completely beat up.  I posted lower scores on the North course for sure but my average scores weren't all that different.


The only place you can see Moraine on the course is the back tee on 3 (unless you hit it badly OB on 1 and go searching).  I much prefer the drive into NCR with views of the short game facility and the North Course.  Moraine unfortunately is basically right off the busy Stroop Rd.


The tee's in Ron's first photo were added around 2018 and my wife was very happy.  Admittedly there aren't many women that would play the South course.  Before those tees my wife always lost a ball and had no chance of hitting the fairway.


Regarding the routing at 8, it is true you cross down to 9.  I think 9 as the hole on the right is the better alternative.  If they were flipped you would have to walk awkwardly behind a green to get to the 10th tee (as Ron said).




Someone told me for the 2005 US Sr. Open they flipped 9 and 18 for grandstand/tv positioning.

[JLahrman]

Ha ha ha...I photographed 18, thinking it was 9. I looked at the map, realized my mistake, drove back, shot 9, then 10, and so forth.


9 green is adjacent to 10 tee. That facility makes the choice easy. If you were to play 18 as 9, you would either drive around the steep backdrop of current 9 green to get to 10, or you would go out of your way by the clubhouse to get to 10 tee.

Yeah that's true, if you switched the holes you'd have players finishing their rounds going behind the ninth green, and the players making the turn walking right behind the 18th green as they went to the 10th tee. And there's not much room back there. But it is really odd the first time you play the course when you go from the 8th green to what you're sure has to be the 9th tee only to find out it's number 18.

[Ronald Montesano]

Joe and JL:


What impressed me about both 18s at NCR was the opportunity to run your ball into putting surfaces. I don't recall a hole where you absolutely had to carry a hazard to reach the promised land. I would love to read more on Wilson. BK does a wee review here (https://web.archive.org/web/20131031114707/http://157.166.226.103/golfonline/travel/architects/wilson.html) and maybe I've made too much of a good guy-bad guy contrast with him and RTJSR, but I think that Wilson's lower profile and his death at 61, keep us from knowing him as well as others of his era (RTJSR and Pete Dye, although Dye was just beginning to flex as Wilson was riding away.)

[Tim Martin]

Joe and JL:


What impressed me about both 18s at NCR was the opportunity to run your ball into putting surfaces. I don't recall a hole where you absolutely had to carry a hazard to reach the promised land. I would love to read more on Wilson. BK does a wee review here (https://web.archive.org/web/20131031114707/http://157.166.226.103/golfonline/travel/architects/wilson.html) and maybe I've made too much of a good guy-bad guy contrast with him and RTJSR, but I think that Wilson's lower profile and his death at 61, keep us from knowing him as well as others of his era (RTJSR and Pete Dye, although Dye was just beginning to flex as Wilson was riding away.)

How do you get in on the ground on 6 and 8 on the South?

[Joe_Tucholski]

How do you get in on the ground on 6 and 8 on the South?

Admittedly you can't really.  You could also add 10 and 14 to the list.


The thing 6, 8, 10 and 14 all have in common is they are relatively short.


As I alluded to earlier 6 was my wife's least favorite hole.  A good round for her on the south was in the 140's (we would still manage to walk in the afternoons in under 2.5 hours).  She did run her ball onto each of these greens but it's not easy.  6 and 10 especially due to the uphill approach with the fronting bunker.

[JLahrman]

As I alluded to earlier 6 was my wife's least favorite hole.  A good round for her on the south was in the 140's (we would still manage to walk in the afternoons in under 2.5 hours).  She did run her ball onto each of these greens but it's not easy.  6 and 10 especially due to the uphill approach with the fronting bunker.

I bet she was not alone among the female members.


I'm starting a campaign to flip the nines. 10-17 become 1-8, and 1-8 become 10-17. Such was my irritation with that crisscross when going to the 9th and 18th tees.

[Joe_Tucholski]

As I alluded to earlier 6 was my wife's least favorite hole.  A good round for her on the south was in the 140's (we would still manage to walk in the afternoons in under 2.5 hours).  She did run her ball onto each of these greens but it's not easy.  6 and 10 especially due to the uphill approach with the fronting bunker.

I bet she was not along among the female members.


I'm starting a campaign to flip the nines. 10-17 become 1-8, and 1-8 become 10-17. Such was my irritation with that crisscross when going to the 9th and 18th tees.

Not too many women would play the South course certainly not ones who shot in 140's.  My wife luckily is a glutton for punishment (married me).


If you made the current 10-17 the new 1-8 and then kept the current 9 the same to get to 10 (the current 1st hole), you'd still have the problem of going behind a green with the change.  This is better than just switching 9 and 18 as the current 18 is shorter than the current 9 so you can walk a straight line to the tee instead of going around.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I didn't realize that Moraine was right next door. It's a great club.

Tommy, Moraine and NCR share an entry road, it's hard to believe that you could have missed Moraine when you pulled into NCR UNLESS the tree situation was that bad at Moraine 25 years ago. I don't think Moraine has a big ol' sign out front but you must have passed it unless there is another entrance to NCR through the adjacent neighborhood that I don't know about. And nowadays you should be able to see the first few holes at Moraine when you drive back into NCR. But again, maybe the trees were that bad 25 years ago that they were obscuring the holes, or perhaps you thought you were seeing a few of NCR's holes.

When I played there I had never heard of Moraine. It is also possible that I saw that there was a course there and just forgot. Forgetting stuff is one of my best things.

[Ronald Montesano]

Here is a look at the four, one-shot holes, in order.

[David Whitmer]

One question I have about the South course...from my one play of the course, #9 and #18 are parallel holes and are both longish dogleg left par 4s. #8 and #17 are also roughly parallel. The 8th green fed right into the...18th tee. And the 17th green fed right into the...9th tee. So golfers coming off of 8 and 17 would cross each other in an X shape to get to their hole.


Does anybody know why the holes were routed this way? I was playing in a tournament that day, maybe they had rerouted us for the tournament for some unknown reason. But if that's the normal routing, it doesn't seem to make much sense. Seems like 9 and 18 could be exchanged since they are so similar.

When the US Senior Open was held there (sometime around 2005 I think, won by Allen Doyle), the USGA switched #9 and #18. Not sure why Wilson designed it that way.


I love NCR South. It’s one of Wilson’s best designs, on a very nice piece of property. I never tire of playing there. I’ve never played the North course, but have heard good things about it.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Here is a look at the four, one-shot holes, in order.

As I've said I love the place.  If I could have changed something it would have been the par 3's.  To me they are somewhat similar.  On the front 9 both are relatively short (I used the same club).  On the back 9 one is a reverse redan and then the other a redan, both fairly long and again I'd often use the same club.  People talked about similarities on 9 and 18 but they never felt the same to me.  On 9 the left bunker was something I had to decide on carrying.  On 18 playing it left to avoid the right bunker but missing the fairway left was a problem.

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