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Carlyle Rood

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Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« on: March 24, 2003, 09:06:48 PM »
I've been going through the photographs I took during my two rounds at Pasatiempo.  I remember remarking during the round that there were a few times where I wasn't even sure whether I was putting uphill or downhill.  I've NEVER had that sort of conflict during a round.

Now I'm beginning to see why.  Note the following two photographs of the second hole.  The first is from my drive on the left side of the fairway.  The second is from the center of the fairway.  SAME HOLE!






I guess the flagstick should have given it away.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2003, 10:27:14 PM »
Carlyle,
I'm not going to give you any conspiracy theories of a mysterious par 3 between #13 & 14, (Insert here, emoticons of hilarious laughter) I'm just going to have to go off of my observation of the course. Pasatiempo is a BELOVED favorite of mine.

From my viewpoint, the entire Pasatiempo development is situated on a sort of huge but gradual hillside. This is one of the main features MacKenzie worked with when building the course; He also relied heavily on the arroyos that cut and dice the property. You image of #2 is an excellent example of this, and it is precisely what originally clued me to what was going with Pasatiempo, when I first played it in the late 1980's.

Just like a Redan-like green, the entire course is tilited from one high point #11 green/#12 tee to #2 green/#3 tee, and it is precisely the reason why when you are on the tee at #3, and you have all of these positive feelings of getting to the green with a certain club, and that it comes up a club and a half short everytime. Or at least it seems it!

In you images of #2, that back left pin position has been my death kneel everytime I have played it there. I have four-putted it twice!

Can you imagine playing Pasatiempo WITHOUT the use of red-white-or blue location flags for the green? Holes 1-4 alone would be really hard to read location-wise from the fairway! It really is all about deception there. The greens are located in the best spots, and as far as camoflauging, here is a perfect place to study the MacKenzie charm. They are placed perfectly in regards to the downhill slope in regards to vision.

(I hope I'm making sense.)

Yes, it maybe inundated with trees on some of the holes, especially since they were designed as shared fairways. (Holes 1&9; 2&3; 6&7; 10&17; 11&12 for example)

Tom's bunker work looks great, and it is an honor that we are allowed entry there to experience it all. Three cheers for Pasatiempo and the membership!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Carlyle Rood

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Uphill and Downhill
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2003, 12:03:12 AM »
Pasatiempo was my favorite course on the trip--and my trip included Pebble Beach and Spyglass Hill!  Pasatiempo had the most entertaining pitches, chips, and putts.  As I mentioned before, I wasn't even sure whether a few putts were uphill or downhill!

I was so proud to have only one three-putt during the round (including from the fringe).  I guess I had 30-32 putts on the day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2003, 02:53:31 AM »
Carlyle

Great twosome of pics of #2 green at Pasa.  Shows how a really good green complex can be well.....complex!  I'd love to see more of these sort of comparative photos, i.e. how a green can look really different depending on which side of the fairway or which distance you approach it from (golfing wise and/or photographically).  We have two many single shot photos on this site which attempt to "prove" something which possibly or probably is just in the mind of the photographer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2003, 07:06:03 AM »
What's even greater about #2 green complex is that the entry would appear to kick everything to the left, correct, in "redan-ish" fashion?  Not so fast, matey... you can somewhat make out some mounds to the front right of the green in Carlyle's second pic - they're in the shadow - these kick the ball RIGHT!  So just when you think you've hit the required running right to left slinger, it doesn't happen, and you have been MacKenzied.

Interesting how growth occurs... when I first "met" the Emperor electronically (I believe 1996?) I was pissed at this very feature.  Now I love it.   ;D

Great pics, Carlyle - keep em coming.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2003, 09:05:40 AM »
I was lucky to have played with Carlyle that day. He played good solid golf and adjusted better than Mike or I to the greens in our rookie appearance. Yes the greens are a mystery in a very fun way. Naturally TH, who also was in the group, would not say much if anything being the competitor he is lol.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2003, 09:12:56 AM »
;D

Hey Tiger, as I said that day, if I knew those greens I would have helped ya!  I was getting as fooled as you guys there, and I have played the course 40+ times.  If anything this tiny bit of familiarity just gets me scared of them - I KNOW how weird they are and how hard they are to believe, as your eyes are telling you things that you know aren't true on the ground... and I know this going in, before seeing any of them.... so every time I play there I'm in a strange putting funk from the get go.  

Thus it wasn't competition keeping my mouth shut, but rather cluelessness!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2003, 09:22:10 AM »
TH, that is a fair response. However the guess of a 40 plus time guesser is better than a rookie. lol lol Naturally the jab was for fun anyway. It was more than a pleasure to play with you again. You had a hill to climb flying in that morning too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2003, 09:26:47 AM »
It was one hell of a fun round, as always JB.  I truly believe you and I could shoot 100+ at a rank muni and have a great time.  Please consider that a compliment, not any comment on our golf games!

Then throw in Hendren, shivas, Carlyle... that was a darn fun round indeed.  Yeah, I had a tough commute, but to say it was worth it is a huge understatement, crappy play or not.

And yeah, I suppose my guesses might have been more "educated"... but when I completely misread my own putts on 2 and 3, leading to back to back three-jacks, well... at that point HUMILITY factored into my silence as well!

BTW, I'm pissed as hell at YOUR Tigers (see how quickly I disown them  ;)).  I had them going to final four in my NCAA pool.  Crazy, hell I guess so... but damn they looked good toward the end of the year... that Purdue game was a knife in my hoops heart.  

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Huntley

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2003, 09:29:42 AM »
I saw nothing complex about the 2nd green. As Messrs. Gib, Dan King, Cirba and Childs can attest, I sunk a seventy footer from the front edge, for a bogey! Jeff thought it was for a birdie, he hadn't seen the second shot sail OB left.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2003, 09:37:30 AM »
Mr. Huntley, your putt was the stuff of legend by the time we arrived at 2 green, as Dan regaled us with the story.  I shrugged it off - I've come to expect these things from you!   ;)

TH

ps - just sent you an email re other matters... please check when you get a chance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2003, 10:19:44 AM »
Tom you noticed I was wearing my LSU hat for a few days. I thought they had a few wins(at least 2) in them too. I was shocked they layed an egg against an average Purdue team. It was great to play with you guys too. It was wierd for a bogie to feel normal. lol
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2003, 10:23:58 AM »
Oh yes Tiger, your chapeau was duly noted and appreciated.  Oh well.... I guess we can root for Butler now.  :'(

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Benham

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2003, 11:38:37 AM »
As we have noted, Pasatiempo has many outstanding features.

For the most part, the tee shot landing areas are generous, putting
 pressure on the approach shot, requiring appropriate skill to leave
your ball in a decent position on the green.

However, the green complexes with the subtle and not-so-subtle
 slopes are where the challenge begins and ends.  

We had some devilish hole placements a few Saturday's ago ...
yes, the 17th is an obvious (ok, only after you have played it ..)
choice but consider some of the others we had, many locations
where if it didn't rain the night before, some of us could still be
putting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2003, 11:46:12 AM »
Aye, there's the rub re Pasa, Mike.  Yes, we did get some devil pins that day, but that's only BECAUSE it had rained and the greens hadn't been cut... any other day those places (like back on 11, back on 8) are unpinnable at normal fast green speeds due to gravity.

Which is sad, when you think about it.  At the speeds they keep those greens these days normally, on many of those wonderfully contoured greens 90% of the area is unpinnable.  You mention 16 - the pin you saw (back right) is really the only place a pin CAN BE on that green... which to me is sad.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2003, 07:28:03 PM »
Tommy,
You mentioned about "Tom's" bunker work.  Did he restore any of the greens.  The picture of #2 looks like that green has shrunk to me (or maybe it's just a huge collar) in relation to where those bunkers are.  What do you think?
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2003, 09:37:41 PM »
Mark,
As far as I know, the greens haven't been touched other then maybe recovering some areas lost to mowing and/or bermuda encroachment.

#2 green looks pretty furocious, as always, to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2003, 09:45:34 PM »
Tom Huck, Even I would be a fool not to admit that I haven't learned even more about Pasa, since 1996. and this is in pictures and memories of the course!

I will be the first to admit that, in person, I didn't really care for Tom & Jim's bunker work just short of the green, right, on #13. In fact, I thought they got the positioning all wrong. It was "I" that was wrong! The positioning is perfect, and the bunker looks to have evolved nicely in the time since I was last there.

Tom, if you are reading this, PLEASE go and get on that bunker on #16!:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Heafy

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2003, 09:46:52 PM »
Tommy - Try the Kiva Retreat House the next time you play Pasatiempo.  www.kivaretreat.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2003, 09:55:56 PM »
Bob, Will do!

Matter of fact, all of you that were at Pasa last weekend, come on! Lets all go to Kiva!

Bob, do they charge by the size of the body?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Heafy

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2003, 10:00:43 PM »
Tommy - Kiva has a fixed fee that does not depend upon the size of the body.  After shooting a high score at Pasatiempo, I have found that Kiva lets me forget my bad round and look forward to the next round.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2003, 11:21:38 PM »
The Kiva looks like a fun place.

I think present company and some of the other Kings Putter guys look better with shirts on, though. :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2003, 07:29:49 AM »
I second Kevin's sentiment!

Tommy - bunkers on 13 look great to me and 14 and 15 look perfect also.  As for 16, dare to dream... I actually don't mind how it is today, as that's always gonna be a "saving" bunker - that is, it saves any ball hit near it from going in hazard - and it would seem to me to also have real erosion issues given it's placement on the side of the hill against a creek... but heck, if anyone can make it better, it's the people doing the work now, right?

10 is the controversial hole re bunkers.. we've discussed it many times here before.  To me it's cool cuz they've returned with uncanny exactness to what it was in the 30's... others don't like it, find it too "chopped up" and regular.  One thing's for sure, it makes 10 one bitch of a golf hole now... and the boomerang effect in the green is beyond cool.

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2003, 09:17:58 AM »
I think Mark Fine asks a question that had our group wondering, as well..

In many cases, there is a considerable amount of room between the greens and greenside bunkering, sometimes as much as 15 yards.  From appearances, one would think that a great deal of greenspace has been lost over the years.
  
However, after the round, I was looking at a 1931 aerial in the clubhouse, and it seems that's the way most of them have always been.  Perhaps just a case of Mackenzie's vaunted deception and camouflaging techniques?  

If you think about it, Cypress Point also has very few bunkers "flush" with the green surface, but quite a few that are a bit "set back".  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Pasatiempo - Now I get it...sort of
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2003, 09:40:32 AM »

Quote
Perhaps just a case of Mackenzie's vaunted deception and camouflaging techniques?

That's always been my take, re Pasa AND Cypress.  MacK does love to do this... and yes, the 1931 aerial of Pasa does back this up.  No significant green shrinkage at Pasa.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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