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Andy Silis

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Due Process
« on: March 24, 2003, 04:56:00 AM »
I will be playing Due Process in New Jersey in May. I understand it is very exclusive and costs something like 250,000 to join. Any info about the course, its architect and its history would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!


                                       Andy Silis
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2003, 05:38:38 AM »
Due Process is a good course designed by Johnny Miller. It is excellently maintained and you are indeed correct about its expensive and exclusive image. That said, it is not a "snotty" place. I've played there twice and both times neither the members, nor the staff appeared anywhere near standoffish.

The club's history, as limited as I know it, involves the course being built by the infamous penny-stock scammer, Robert Brennan on an existing horse farm property of his. He was an avowed horseman, having owned several race tracks and International Throughbred Breeders, a racehorse business. Brennan was pursued for quite a long time by the SEC and other Feds and finally remanded to jail and received a hefty fine that mandated his selling the club. Successful local investors then bought the place sometime in the mid 1990's and started selling memberships in the 75-200k level. It was tough slogging and the club then underwent yet another restructuring....this time selling to its present owner, a fellow who started Snapple.

  The course is fun, wonderfully manicured, tight and rarely busy. Miller has actually succeeded in shaping a nice 18 inside a relatively small and flat property. His use of well trapped greens and doglegs give the course some teeth, something like a shorter version of his Thanksgiving Point in SLC, Utah.

  The slightly over-the-top horse theme makes you wonder why there are not horse drawn caddies...the only horsey acoutrement missing. Overall, it is a high-scale private course experience that doesn't really disappoint. Enjoy!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Paul Richards

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Re: Due Process
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2003, 05:54:42 AM »
Due Process is a wonderful course with immaculate conditioning and certainly, at least to me, a 'hidden gem.'  Enjoy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Due Process
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2003, 10:03:35 AM »
Slapper:

Thanks for the good info on Due Process. Think maybe you could dig a little deeper and find out who really designed Due Process? I realize you said Johnny Miller and no doubt his name is on the design but.....?  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Due Process
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2003, 10:20:58 AM »
If I'm not mistaken I believe Gene Bates assisted with JM at DP as he did at nearby Shore Oaks in Farmingdale.

P.S. DP is a demanding course from the tips although the land is quite flat -- how ironic that the "horse country" of NJ is clearly far different than what one would find in Kentucky! The course has also been consistently rated among the top 20 courses in the Garden State by Jersey Golfer -- that's no small feat given the stiff competition.

Slapper is quite correct about the nature of the club. I can name a few others in the Shore region of NJ that can make a good case for high snob appeal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2003, 12:01:38 PM »
Tom,

  Matt beat me to it. Bates did over 90% of the work according to my source. I've heard about others having responsibility for course construction, but just don't know whether its fact or fiction. Lots of fiction takes place in that Barn/Clubhouse!

Matt,

  Hate to nitpick, but although the Colt's Neck area does have quite a few throughbred horse farms, the real "Horse Country" of NJ is centered around Central New Jersey, specifically Somerset County. The difference is actually interesting. The area around and near DP is very flat, low-lying, and subject to periodic flash-flooding. It is also has significantly sandier soil than Central or Western NJ. It is also throughbred race horse training ground, unlike the real "horse country" of Central Jersey. There, the equine set centers around jumping, showing, fox-hunting and more exposure to public riding throughout the local area parks. The USET shares land with Hamilton Farm GC and riders are often seen on the lands abutting the new Trump National site. Somerset Hills also has riders up through some of it's adjacent woods. The soil is more rocky, woodsy and far less sandy than the Mercer county areas. Also, significant elevation exists in and around the real "horse country."

Yours Truly,

Mr. Ed
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Matt_Ward

Re: Due Process
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2003, 12:08:41 PM »
slapper / AKA "Mr Ed:"

Maybe Ran can set up a corollary site for all the horse lovers out there!

P.S. One aspect worth noting about Due Process -- given the utter flat qualities of the terrain the general demands and variability of the design is quite good. You have to have some element of "game" to play the course -- especially form the tips for those who dare!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2003, 12:15:12 PM »

Quote
slapper / AKA "Mr Ed:"

Maybe Ran can set up a corollary site for all the horse lovers out there!

P.S. One aspect worth noting about Due Process -- given the utter flat qualities of the terrain the general demands and variability of the design is quite good. You have to have some element of "game" to play the course -- especially form the tips for those who dare!



Hold on Wilburrrrr....


   I only noted the difference to highlight the terrain differential. I absolutely agree with you(DID I SAY THAT???) that DP accomplished quite a bit with that utterly flat piece of land. It is a tough track from the tips and the wind often swirls a bit as well.

One site is enough...unless of course we ask Ran for another to laud the ultra-conditioned, super-long, built-from-the-lego set kind of course you admire!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re: Due Process
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2003, 12:25:53 PM »
Matt Ward:

What's going on in Jersey? Sometimes it sounds to me as if there're about 50 courses in the top 20 in New Jersey. As far as I'm concerned that's not a bad way to do it. I think there should be about a hundred in the top 10 everywhere. Throw in a bunch of #1s too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Due Process
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2003, 12:28:36 PM »
slapper / er "Mr. Ed"

You must be confusing me with some other horse. :o
My range in golf courses is quite varied and I try to maintain a pragmatic perspective. Given that I "cut my horse teeth" on the munis of Jersey!

But, yes, I do like a course with some teeth that's more than just the estoeric and eccentric aspects you see being favored by a number of posters here.

Look forward to teeing up this year!

P.S. Don't let our "agreements" go to your head or you'll really be a horse's a**!!! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Due Process
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2003, 12:37:55 PM »
"estoeric and eccentric aspects"

Matt ward:

What are those exactly?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

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Re: Due Process
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2003, 12:46:44 PM »

Quote
slapper / er "Mr. Ed"

You must be confusing me with some other horse. :o
My range in golf courses is quite varied and I try to maintain a pragmatic perspective. Given that I "cut my horse teeth" on the munis of Jersey!

But, yes, I do like a course with some teeth that's more than just the estoeric and eccentric aspects you see being favored by a number of posters here.

Look forward to teeing up this year!

P.S. Don't let our "agreements" go to your head or you'll really be a horse's a**!!! ;D

Oh Matt,

  I wouldn't dare accuse you of anything (that I could back up)! If I did that, my home course would likely never make it out of the "barn" onto the esteemed top 1000 NJ courses! I know your taste runs the gamut, however, in the recent war-like spirit of the GCA posts, I couldn't resist a really good cheap whip shot ;D ;).

PS... I am already considered by many to be a "horses-a**, so not much surprise room left there. Played Architects yesterday....not bad shape all things considered.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2003, 12:48:30 PM »

Quote
"estoeric and eccentric aspects"

Matt ward:

What are those exactly?

Tom,

  Leave Matt alone....those are some big words for him! Asking him to define those might just be like asking the French to get some spine.

Remember, he is a "man of the munis!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Matt_Ward

Re: Due Process
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2003, 12:48:40 PM »
Tom P:

DP has been a member of the top 20 for quite some time, according to Jersey Golfer. We didn't just wake up and smell the coffee on that one Tom.

Regarding esoteric and eccentric -- think of it this way there are some posters who enjoy and sometimes even promote what I would define as periphery aspects not tied directly to the challenge of the course. Sometimes you get people who admire the curtains more than the meal at a first rate restaurant. Being the astute fellow you are I think you'll be able to understand what I'm talking about.

Tom, I've listed the top 25 as presented by Jersey Golfer from our last issue in 2002 -- we actually rated the top 50. Let me know what you think -- heaven forbid we discuss ratings. :o Adios for now ...

Pine Valley
Plainfield
Baltusrol / Lower
Metedeconk National / 1st & 3rd Nines
Hollywood
Galloway National
Ridgewood / E&W
Forsgate / Banks
Baltusrol / Upper
Somerset Hills
Essex County
Due Process Stables
Hackesnack
Medford Village
Montclair / #2 & #4
Twisted Dune
Canoe Brook / North
Hamilton Farm (slapper is eating his heart out!)
Ballyowen
Blue Heron Pines / East
Mountain Ridge
Royce Brook / West
Atlantic City
Alpine
Hidden Creek
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Due Process
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2003, 12:59:53 PM »
Slapper:

OK, I'll let him off the hook.

"esoteric and eccentric aspects"

Matt:

Forget about what you mean by that exactly--what you mean by that generally will be OK. If you want to say for now---two big words that begin with "e" that'd be OK too, I guess.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Andy Silis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2003, 08:07:23 PM »
Thanks to all in this Treehouse for the scoop regarding Due Process. After Due Process I'll be playing the Bridge and Westhampton. I'll try and reprt on my trip although I'm a little apprehensive about starting another "cigar" thread as it relates to The Bridge.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Due Process
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2003, 08:16:09 PM »
Andy;

We'll skip the commentary on "the Bridge" and let Pat Mucci tell you about it. But Westhampton! That was Raynor's first solo--extremely flat site--very interesting golf course of an era! Some really analizable golf holes with some very interesting movement in those greens. If you'd like we might resurrect Mike Rewinski, the super, who used to contribute on here for you. He's been there for years and no one knows more about the course than Mike--most of the East End for that matter. His family has been in the super business out there for generations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Due Process
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2003, 09:34:30 PM »
TEPaul,

Having played Westhampton many times, I think it is a terrific golf course that doesn't get the credit it deserves.

As to The Bridge, I haven't lost my dog, but I'm hoping to play it this summer.

There is a question about whether or not the current owner of Due Process wants to continue with its operation, and for how long.  Even though individuals can tolerate a club running at a loss, they may get tired of it after a while.  
This economy isn't exactly the best for attracting and retaining members.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Due Process
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2003, 10:06:55 PM »
"As to The Bridge, I haven't lost my dog, but I'm hoping to play it this summer."

Pat:

You haven't played The Bridge? I can't believe that. I hope at least you've been there! If not and you gave me all that flack about what I said about that mounding year ago--I'm gonna have to get you for this. Tell me you've at least been there or how would you have known anything about the place other than photographs?----if you've never even been there---OH MY GOD how horrible---no one will ever be able to trust you again!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2003, 05:23:35 AM »
To the sparring Amigos and Andy,


  Westhampton is indeed a fun, quirky and well underrated course that shows just how successful the golden ager's could be with small flat plots of land.
   I am appalled that Pat has not played the Bridge! How will I ever be able to read/look/talk to him again, He has gone from my Encyclopedic source of the NY Metro area to merely Entertainment Weekly (or Daily)!
  Also, a note back on subject: The Snapple King has vowed to make the course his own private fiefdom and keep it open for as long as someone continues to play gin with him.
   Andy, you better start a thread on the Bridge....whe have to have something to celebrate/bash etc...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Andy Silis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Due Process
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2003, 09:53:20 AM »
Slapper, TE Paul, Pat et al:

              As a relatively infrequent contributor to this site ( but an avid lurker) I am planning on definitely submitting my thoughts, opinions etc. regarding Due Process, The Bridge and Westhampton after my trip! Maybe the thread ( particularly as it pertains to The Bridge) will set a new record for length, most posts etc. and I will be a able to claim a little GCA immortality! ( Dubious or not!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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