[TEPaul]

I think this has been posted in one way or another but I was thinking again at the way various architects through the ages looked at the design and concept of par 5s.

I think architects such as Tillinghast, Flynn, Crump and perhaps Hugh Wilson looked at the par 5 concept as what they called the "true three shot" hole.

In other words as a "three shot" hole the par 5 was not supposed to be reached in two shots by anyone--that was simply not supposed to be an option. It wasn't even designed to be reached by a long second shot. Tillinghast very specifically said that and in a great deal of detail! He mentioned that on a real "three shot" hole the green generally needed to be designed to be somewhat tricky for even a short third shot and that fact alone basically precluded being able to play a second shot to reach it! Also he mentioned in some ways the Hell's half acre style cross bunkering should preclude a golfer being able to reach the green in three shots if his first two weren't about perfect!

Flynn mentioned in writing that a real par 5 should always be a true three shot hole. Crump said a number of times that the two par 5s at PVGC needed to be "unreachable" in two shots and also in three if three almost perfect shots were not played.

I realize that some golf architectural analysts look at holes like this as either a "slog" or not offering proper options since reaching these greens in two may not be an option. Nevertheless it would seem a hole that's very demanding to reach in three shots could be interesting if the reason was something other than JUST distance.

So the question is what are some of the most demanding par 5s for anyone to reach in THREE SHOTS or the most demanding to par for whatever reason?

The one I would nominate would be PVGC's #15. It's not just the distance either. Even with a relatively short third shot, for a number of reasons, that hole is very hard to play to successfully in three shots. The third shot is never easy and there's just a awful lot to think about on and around that green.

I'd also say PV's #15 might be most demanding par 5 to par I know of and of course for almost anyone (even Davis Love in the Walker Cup couldn't hit it with his third shot) it's basically unreachable in two so to birdie it has to be a one putt! But even to par it can be very tough for a variety of reasons.

Is this kind of par 5 that's very demanding to par (other than just because of length) a good thing in golf architecture?

[TEPaul]

Another one I've never played but initially may have been planned conceptually as difficult to par could be Rustic Canyon's #13. I believed they removed some length from the design before they built it but it was originally conceived as a very long par 5 with a very tricky third shot due to the center bunker and green configuration around that bunker.

I don't know how long Friar's Head's #7 can be, and if it's reachable in two but there are sections of that green that can be very difficult to either get to or putt to I would think. Is that another one that may be very hard to par for other reasons?

How about Pacific Dune's #18? From the tips it's very long and there seems to be a lot going on on and around that green?

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

Not a lot of golfers are going to be coming into PV's #15 with a lob wedge. They may think they will be but they're dreaming! Even Davis Love (at a time of his maximum length) missed the green with a 9 iron--so anyone who thinks lob wedge third shot is dreaming. But there's always been a huge place in golf architecture for dreamers, don't you think?

[Jeff_Mingay]

I was going to mention, it seems that Dr. MacKenzie's thoughts on par 5 holes was opposite to Flynn's and Crump's. Holes like 13 and 15 at Augusta National, for example, were intended to play as 'half par' holes, that tempt golfers to go for the green in two, right. Then, the 8th holes at both Augusta National and Crystal Downs came to mind.

Having seen the hole in person, I can't believe the pros can reach the 8th green at ANGC in two! It's amazing. Not only is the hole blatantly long, it plays DRAMATICALLY uphill. And thus, the natural cant of the fairway leaves a severe uphill lie no matter where you drive the ball. To play a shot from that type of lie, more than +/- 230 yards, uphill requires great skill.

Eight at Crystal Downs is a tough three shots - at least for the layman. It's a blatantly long hole, too, but I think the principle challenge is derived from the fact that it's very difficult to find a level lie anywhere through the green. The fairway is naturally 'lumpy', all the way from tee to green. And the putting surface there, is very small. I wonder though, what Woods, Els, Mickelson, et.al. could do there, in regard to reaching the green in two? It seems unfathomable. But those guys have surprised me before!

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Paul:

The 8th hole on the Cashen at Ballybunion can be one of the toughest par 5s to par, especially when played into the wind.

Though nearly 600 yards, length really isn't the issue with this hole. Rather, the 8th on the Cashen provides a good example of what I call the domino effect. That is to say, a misplaced tee shot can really make finding the putting surface in three shots difficult. What makes this true is the slight dogleg and huge fall off around the 270-280 yard mark. A pulled tee shot is likely to leave a very awkward side hill shot often from thick rough. Even a shot in the middle of the fairway can be tough. This is because if you make it only part of the way down the hill, you will be left with a tough downhill stance making it difficult to advance the ball far enough on your second shot.

Provided you avoid these disasters, the second shot doesn't really present much challenge. The landing area for the second shot is quite wide and free of any hazards. But, you better advance the ball as far as possible because the green is well elevated, well defended, fairly small and contains quite a bit of slope. Even if you hit a great tee shot and make it all the way down the hill, this green is really not designed to accept a long second shot.

The green complex contributes to what I call the domino effect. Once you become familiar with the hole you realize that making up shots around the green isn't very likely. The experienced player is very familiar with this point when standing on the tee.

True, in calm conditions the 8th on the Cashen becomes far easier and par isn't that difficult, but such conditions don't come very often.

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

They must have changed their thinking on 13 Rustic, because it is certainly not a true 3 shot hole now, not for the big boys anyway. Yes, it is subtly uphill (up-canyon effect) but at 555 from the tips, Matt Ward is reaching that with driver-3iron.  It's straight, there's nothing in the way, and one can run the ball up pretty easily, to the right side anyway.

Of course that green is so darn brilliant, wrapping around the central bunker, that making a 5 might still be an issue if you find yourself on the wrong side!  And yes, for us mortals the 3rd shot is always gonna be problematic, for this same reason.

I just don't see it being a 3-shotter as it is for the really big hitters.  Heck, I got within 50-60 yards myself and I'm a pansyboy.  

I wonder though if it isn't a BETTER hole how it is now... tempting the big boys to give it a rip, and punishing them mightily, but in a subtle way, if they fail... That is, they might go for it in two, everything's telling them "why not", and think the margin for error is huge... only to find upon getting near the green that the challenge is huger and the miss on the wrong side is severely penalized... very interesting.  GREAT hole.  

Pacific Dunes #18 applies as a true 3-shotter, I think... jeez that has the length from the way backs and there is SO much going on there re bunkering, that truly must be a 3 shot hole.

True three-shot holes for the pros are really, really rare these days.  And that's kinda sad.

TH

[T_MacWood]

Because of the nature of the green complex, the 14th at Pebble Beach come to mind. The 16th at Shinnecock and the 14th at The Golf Club are both challenging pars.

[Dan Grossman]

I think #18 at Pac Dunes (from the tips) is just impossible.  Not only is it tight, it is really long.  I am having trouble thinking of another par 5 that is as demanding.

[Mike Benham]

Because of the nature of the green complex, the 14th at Pebble Beach come to mind. The 16th at Shinnecock and the 14th at The Golf Club are both challenging pars.

In this day, where length is confused with difficulty, the 14th at Pebble is a perfect example of difficulty.  

There are very few rewards to try and hit the green in two because the green won't accept a long iron or fairway metal.

Whether it is a long-hitting pro or everyday 12 handicap, the 14th a Pebble boils down to a short-iron to determine if make birdie, par or bogey ... of course, that is assuming you have hit your first two shots properly.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Dan - current black tee yardage on 18 at PD is 591 - but isn't there an even FURTHER back tee beyond that?  Not that I venture to such things personally, but I do remember reading this.... something in the 650+ range?

It's hard enough at 591, and I really think is a true three-shotter at that distance, given that it's one hell of a carry from the tee, maybe even impossible, to try and go left and shorten the hole...

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Tom - there is a back-back tee on #18 at the very top of that sand ridge at about 650, I think.  I played it there once, and had a hard time getting to the clearing where the fairway starts (right about where the ladies tee is).  

But, I agree with you, even at 591, it is probably a true three shotter and a very difficult hole given the demanding tee shot, second shot and green complex.

[THuckaby2]

Cool, that's what I thought, thanks, Dan.  Man it's a long carry at the 591 tee... who can even think of doing anything but going far right from the 650?  I guess that's the point....

TH

[Jeff Goldman]

Shivas, are the ones you mentioned harder than 9 at Big Run because of their length?  Although it's long (610 yds), the problem really is the trees, slope of the ground (down then up), big dogleg right when you get near the green, and the big swale in the green and its slope.

Jeff Goldman

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan Grossman/Tom Huckaby;

The 18th at Pacific Dune is not a "true three-shotter".

Instead, played in this season, it's a "true four-shotter"!!  

I suddenly felt old and weak out there.

[THuckaby2]

Mike/redanman:

Oh shit... you guys got "winter wind" meaning that played INTO it, right?  It was quartering and helping on that hole when I was there... Made 17 play brutally hard, but helped tremendously on 18... Jeez, I might call it a FIVE-shotter into the wind, from the way backs....

TH

[Dan Grossman]

We played it into the wind from all the way back, which is why I had trouble getting it past the ladies tees.  Even if I hadn't hit it into a fairway bunker, I still wouldn't have gotten there in three....

[THuckaby2]

My god... if ever there's a poster-hole for moving tees up due to wind, 18 at PD qualifies.  It is beyond my puny imagination to contemplate.

TH

[ForkaB]

I agree with #18 at PD--a great golf hole.  Another one is #15 at Harbour Town.  In both cases two demanding and long shots and then a hard third to a small and well designed green.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, we played the tips at 591.  It would be incomprehensible at 650 into THAT wind.

My good drive just skirted past the ladie's tee, as well, VERY fortunately considering the chilly conditions.  

Seriously, though, those conditions brought the huge, "wall of sand" driving bunkers on the left into serious play...for the SECOND SHOT!!  

Don't ask me how I know...twice!

[THuckaby2]

Playing that at 591 in the winter wind reeks of masochism to me!  Tom D. was wise to move that group up... Damn if I'm setting up the course I move all the blocks up for the entire winter.

TH

[brad_miller]

how about #16 at Sand Hills, great land movement and angles, sometimes blind 2nd shot, just a great hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Masochistic, yes, but the wind works both ways.

On the plus side, 13 played driver, 3/4 sand wedge.  Unfortunately, 4 was unreachable in two but the real fun was hitting a punched-down 70 yard five-iron approach shot!

Quite the variable and FUN course, indeed!  

[Doug Wright]

Brad,

Sand Hills 16 is a strong par 5 with a demanding tee shot but it can be reached in two if you hit the tee shot where it runs down the hill. Plus re the topic I didn't find it to be a "demanding par 5 to par."

Agree re Pacific Dunes #18. Definitely a demanding hole, particularly into the wind.

It's been a loooong time since I played it, and I played it in a different ball/club era, but #13 Oak Hill East sure seemed like a very demanding 5 par. It's 600+ yards largely uphill, thick rough, creek crossing the fairway that made the second shot very hard if you hit it in the rough off the tee (which, in turn, made the tee shot that much tougher--this is a good design concept IMO, where there's pressure that one bad shot can lead to difficult consequences on the next one), a sloped green.

God Bless America,

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Heck yeah the wind works both ways, one of the many things that makes PD great.  Picture the opposite summer wind... 16 was eminently driveable, 17 played brutally long and hard, and 18 was doable even from the tips... and on 4, one time I played it driver-putter!  I shit you not, as they way.  From green tees, got a driver to about 70 yards short of the green... yes, app. 380 yard drive... that oughtta tell you how strong the wind was coupled with how firm and fast it was playing... the only shot I figured would work to the green was a putter.  Anything in the air would have been pushed over the green, with the wind blowing it hard even on the bounce!  Worked pretty well... Then think about how 13 played for us that round - absolutely unreachable.

My point is that if I were King of Bandon, I'd place the tee blocks with the seasonal wind in mind... and damn right move them up on 18, that's all.

TH

ps - did you get to play the lower hidden tee on 4?  Makes for a much more fun tee-shot in the summer, having to hit up the cliff... of course in winter you'd worry about the carry...

[Steve_L.]

To me, hands down...  It's #9 at TPC Sawgrass...

580+ yards - with a tiny green bunkered severely...  A second shot down the left side is stymied by large oaks, a second down the right side leaves a hanging lie...

Seems to me that I recall it playing near to or over par for the pro's - almost unheard of for a par 5...

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