[cary lichtenstein]

I'll say it -- Pebble Beach. A lot of forgettable holes that you wouldn't remember at all if they weren't located in the most spectacular setting on the planet.

Kevin, can’t argue with your opinion but I will tell you I can still remember every club I hit on every shot when I played Pebble well over 10 years ago. Couldn’t do the same for any other round of golf I’ve played.

I should clarify...the majority of the holes are all-world. The others are uninspired IMO beyond their setting. 1, 2, 13, 15, and 16 are meh to me. A top 10 course in the world shouldn't have that much meh.

I've played Pebble Beach 100 times, 4 times each year for 25 consecutive year, so I claim to be a self appointed expert. While I agree that there are a few mundane holes, I loved every round. I thought it was a very fair course to score on and that made for very enjoyable rounds vs. Oakmont which if I hade to play 100 rounds, I'd just quit golf (or maybe learn how to play it after 5-10 rounds). I always wanted to get thru 8 at -1 or +1 to par, because the course gets appreciably more difficult after 8.


I think Pine Valley is the best course and if I was a member, I'd look forward to 100 rounds.

[David Kelly]

Underrated nowadays, emphatically (although not on this site) remains RND Westward Ho! with as Ran says about the greatest variety of hazard of any golf course in the UK.

Agree completely about RND and his course profile of Westward Ho! is one of the best things Ran has ever written on this site. 

[Mike Wagner]

Mike,


Great that you were able to see those courses! What was the consensus of the group? Were there certain features/holes that stuck out?


What else were you able to see? Hope you had a good trip!



It was an incredible trip, thanks.


Western Gailes
Royal Troon
Turnberry
Prestwick
Royal Dornoch
Trump Aberdeen
Cabot (Castle Stuart)
Cruden Bay
Royal Aberdeen


First trip over for me .. about half the 12 had been before but not played any of these courses. Turnberrry was early and even with exceptional wind, the general dinner conversation was "is this the best course in the world?" Certainly it's in a conversation .. and I thought it was incredible - definitely can see why it's a championship course.


Past that, most of us (including me) had a tie between Dornoch and Cruden Bay as the one you'd most want to play. The blind holes on CB I loved. Prestwick had some of the most unique holes I'd ever seen.


Trump Aberdeen and Cabot were awesome experiences .. the views are unreal. The holes were underwhelming .. mainly I think because they're competing with such historical and more fun "quirk." No regrets, just makes me want to go play every "no name" links course over there.

[Steve Kennedy]

Due Process in NJ is quite overrated imo - i just dont understand the hype

[Will Thrasher]

Due Process in NJ is quite overrated imo - i just dont understand the hype

Have heard the same, however it is one of the more entertaining backstories on a Golf Club name.

[Tim_Weiman]

Old Barnwell - cut down every tree it seemed and lost some opportunities as a result IMHO. New course with buzz so not ranked yet.

What opportunities were lost?

Brian, with such an expansive property and land that was covered in pines I would have liked to have seen a couple holes use some of them.  Create a dogleg, maybe a lone tree in the fairway as the course has great width to pick a side. Even have a few on one side of the fairway on a par 5 like August 15?  That is what I was thinking and since the mature trees were already there, IMHO an opportunity missed.

That's fair enough.  A question to which I do not know the answer is: were there mature trees that could serve such a purpose on the portions of the property that are now cleared?  On many such sites in the SE US, the land is actually not covered by large, mature trees, but rather a mix of scrub grass, bushes, and smaller pines.  Since larger trees were left in place on portions of the course, I wonder how much of the land was previously covered by large trees.  Perhaps one of Brian, Blake, Nick, or someone else with knowledge of the development could fill us in if they see this.

I'll chime in here, but before doing so I just want to state unequivocally that I respect Jeff's and anybody's opinion that Old Barnwell is overrated. I'm incredibly biased and love the course and our club for so many reasons, but one of the best things I think Brian and Blake did was to make bold decisions, some of which will not appeal to everyone, which is fine by me. Also, we just opened the golf course for our second season earlier this week, so to be "overrated" right out of the gate is a wonderful problem to have, and all credit should go to B&B (especially the overrated part  ).


As far as the tree clearing goes... the entire central valley of the property was part of the original 444-acre parcel I purchased. The trees across that entire swath of land were all baby pines, between 4-10 years old. I'm not a forestry expert by any means, but I'd say the range of height was 5ft-12ft, and even with the largest trees you could wrap two hands around the diameter of the trunk. We couldn't even sell them for pulp. In other words, it made a lot of sense for Brian and Blake to clear that swath of land to open up vistas and create the more exposed feel of the Upper Loop (1-5, 17 & 18). But at the time clearing everything wasn't a slam dunk decision, but it is one I'm grateful they made.


The 75-80 acres we purchased on the south side of the property was full of mature pines, through which Brian and Blake routed some of the finest holes on the course (all of 9,10, 13, 14, and the tees on 11 & 15). Though the fairways are wide, you are playing in and around the trees. I know this all too well, as I careened off several yesterday on the left side of 9!


To respond more specifically to Jeff's post, I will point out that a lone tree in a fairway exists on 16 (though not exactly as you describe), and some mature pines line the left side of the landing area on the par five 12th hole and to the back left of the green. This doesn't mean Jeff is wrong (or right), it is just reflective of how he experienced the course. Could Brian and Blake have used the baby pines more effectively? Perhaps. But therein lies the beauty of this entire message board! The world will never know, which means we get to debate back and forth about theoretical decisions made (or not made) at our favorite, least favorite, or most overrated courses.

Nick,


Great post. It is nice when a post includes details from someone actually knowledgeable about the development of a course.


As for Jeff’s lone tree idea, I have seen a couple examples. #18 at Pebble Beach might be the best example, but generally speaking I don’t regard them as a great design feature.


Maybe Pebble Beach Company could afford replacing that tree near the #18 green, but that seems a bit crazy to me.


Tim

[Tommy Williamsen]

Underrated nowadays, emphatically (although not on this site) remains RND Westward Ho! with as Ran says about the greatest variety of hazard of any golf course in the UK.

Agree completely about RND and his course profile of Westward Ho! is one of the best things Ran has ever written on this site.

I was an overseas member at WH! For ten years and have played dozens of rounds there. While the first and last holes are on heavier land the holes are good. Standing on the sixth tee is one of the more sublime places in links golf. The par threes are noting short of excellent. I have not played there since the redesign of nine, but when it was a par five it was one of the best short par fives on the planet. I love the place.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I'll cast another vote for TPC Sawgrass. All the cool features I saw on TV are barely visible at ground level.


Didn't help that I played in late January when the tournament was played in May and they quit overseeding with rye. Played fine but it was just a sea of beige. I guess for $600 they didn't feel the consumer deserved greenery and flowers

[James Reader]

I'll cast another vote for TPC Sawgrass. All the cool features I saw on TV are barely visible at ground level.


Didn't help that I played in late January when the tournament was played in May and they quit overseeding with rye. Played fine but it was just a sea of beige. I guess for $600 they didn't feel the consumer deserved greenery and flowers

Yep. That’s what makes a round of golf worth $600 for me. Greenery and flowers. 😳

[Mark Pearce]

I'll cast another vote for TPC Sawgrass. All the cool features I saw on TV are barely visible at ground level.


Didn't help that I played in late January when the tournament was played in May and they quit overseeding with rye. Played fine but it was just a sea of beige. I guess for $600 they didn't feel the consumer deserved greenery and flowers

Yep. That’s what makes a round of golf worth $600 for me. Greenery and flowers. 😳

Pretty much exactly my reaction.  But then I love turning up and seeing golf courses that are beige - I know they're going to play fabulously.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I'll cast another vote for TPC Sawgrass. All the cool features I saw on TV are barely visible at ground level.


Didn't help that I played in late January when the tournament was played in May and they quit overseeding with rye. Played fine but it was just a sea of beige. I guess for $600 they didn't feel the consumer deserved greenery and flowers

Yep. That’s what makes a round of golf worth $600 for me. Greenery and flowers. 😳

Pretty much exactly my reaction.  But then I love turning up and seeing golf courses that are beige - I know they're going to play fabulously.

Sorry to be unwoke. I guess I should have complained that it wasn't fast and firm either and didn't allow for the ground game. Would that have been better?


When I escape the cold for Florida I'll admit I look forward to seeing things growing. If I lose my GCA card for that, so be it

[archie_struthers]

 


Cary , hope this finds you in good health ! After all these years of enjoying your posts glad to hear you may still get an occasional round in at Pebble ....or is this just wishful thinking on my half?


I only played Oakmont twice in my life and loved both trips. Perhaps it was a combination of the members being so gracious to have guest play or the hamburgers being off the chart but thought it was very difficult but I could figure it out. Of course I hit it a lot further and played so much better then >  keep posting look forward to hearing from you on the site




cheers


Archie

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary , hope this finds you in good health ! After all these years of enjoying your posts glad to hear you may still get an occasional round in at Pebble ....or is this just wishful thinking on my half?


I only played Oakmont twice in my life and loved both trips. Perhaps it was a combination of the members being so gracious to have guest play or the hamburgers being off the chart but thought it was very difficult but I could figure it out. Of course I hit it a lot further and played so much better then >  keep posting look forward to hearing from you on the site




cheers


Archie

Archie:
2008 was my last round of golf, 5 back surgeries took care of that. I still enjoy this site and all the fond memories. For purposes of TV viewing only, TPC Sawgrass has the most adrenaline pumping finish in golf. I played it once, just after it was built, so hard then, the greens were ridiclous, but the TV last 3 holes leave everyone handing onto their seat

[Will Thrasher]

Cary , hope this finds you in good health ! After all these years of enjoying your posts glad to hear you may still get an occasional round in at Pebble ....or is this just wishful thinking on my half?


I only played Oakmont twice in my life and loved both trips. Perhaps it was a combination of the members being so gracious to have guest play or the hamburgers being off the chart but thought it was very difficult but I could figure it out. Of course I hit it a lot further and played so much better then >  keep posting look forward to hearing from you on the site




cheers


Archie

Archie:
2008 was my last round of golf, 5 back surgeries took care of that. I still enjoy this site and all the fond memories. For purposes of TV viewing only, TPC Sawgrass has the most adrenaline pumping finish in golf. I played it once, just after it was built, so hard then, the greens were ridiclous, but the TV last 3 holes leave everyone handing onto their seat

Sawgrass is incredible from a professional tournament perspective for all the reasons you stated, and the fact that a diverse set of golfing skill can contend/win. I think that's a very different question than a subjected overrated standard. Your mileage may vary, but I'm sure there are PLENTY of places most folks would rather play. This thread has been fun to follow for that reason.

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