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Stewart Abramson

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #325 on: June 08, 2024, 02:05:41 AM »


The data showed that under this definition, there is virtually zero benefit to having a good angle from wedge distances in the fairway. This result makes sense, as professional golfers are consistently able to stop shots on the green immediately from the fairway with a short iron in hand.


So you are telling me that the angle of approach makes no difference on the 10th hole at Riviera?  Or the 16th at Pacific Dunes?


Why does everyone talk about them so much then?  Why do pros aim way left on 10 at Riviera, and why do they make bogeys when they miss to the right?


I will agree with you that on the average hole, the angle doesn't matter when you've got a wedge in your hands.  But it's just dumb to say that we can't make the angle matter.


To be clear, it's not me telling anything. These were all Brandel's conclusions and Joseph Lamagna's commentary thereon.I thought the article was an interesting add on to this interesting thread.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #326 on: June 08, 2024, 12:53:46 PM »
Tom,


The thing is, in the older generation of pros I worked with, any time I said the goal is to challenge the hazard, I can't recall any saying they did that.  Haven't heard if from top ams, or mid ams, or even and especially low skill ams.


I also think the Golden Age axioms are too superficial as if someone coming in over a bunker will only have the option to fire at the pin.  Stats show that IF a decent player (although Lou's data also includes 5, 10, and 15 handicaps) comes from the wrong angle, he adapts by playing a conservative shot well over the hazard in front.  Not to mention, picking your line, distance, and shot pattern, spin, etc. is still a strategy. (Some would call it tactics instead, but I disagree, as you are still picking a spot to land, just like on the tee shot.


And, statistically, like most sports, playing defense wins championships.  A long downhill approach shot is harder than an uphill putt, but you probably still walk away with par, which is rarely a bad score.  As I have heard Jack and others say, avoid the bogeys because then you need two birdies to get under par.


Very shallow greens like Riv 10 at 45 degrees to the LOP make it harder to come in from the wrong angle, so yes, in those cases, and when the green falls away from one angle, the angle can matter.  How often should that happen in a design, where the green is narrower than the dispersion pattern?  Yes, it can make great players make bogey, but also makes life miserable for the everyday player.


Perhaps oddly, for players with great distance control, coming into a green over a hazard might make the shot easier, since wedge dispersion patterns are usually wider than long.  Thus, if someone knows their carry distance, and the exact carry distance of the line they take, they are probably less likely to miss the green.



As your Brian Silva example also shows, there is no way designers can ever imagine every mental process of every golfer, i.e., how on earth would we know how a guy who is prone to a pull with short irons would play it that way?  Again, play it any way you please.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #327 on: June 08, 2024, 01:04:53 PM »
I hit the driver 200 to 230 with a slight push or fade (ideally).  I create my own angle by teeing the ball near the right hand marker and aim at the left edge of the fairway around 250 yards out. 


Angles are critical for mid handicappers.  And fun to boot.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Niall C

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #328 on: June 08, 2024, 02:13:18 PM »
I hit the driver 200 to 230 with a slight push or fade (ideally).  I create my own angle by teeing the ball near the right hand marker and aim at the left edge of the fairway around 250 yards out. 


Angles are critical for mid handicappers.  And fun to boot.


Bingo !

Stewart Abramson

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #329 on: June 08, 2024, 02:48:07 PM »
I hit the driver 200 to 230 with a slight push or fade (ideally).  I create my own angle by teeing the ball near the right hand marker and aim at the left edge of the fairway around 250 yards out. 


Angles are critical for mid handicappers.  And fun to boot.


But it sounds as if the angle you're describing is the same no matter what the supposed strategy of the hole calls for. I think playing one shot over and over again because it's the one shot shape you hit is not the same notion as playing an angle for a strategy based on the particular design of a golf hole.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #330 on: June 08, 2024, 03:04:22 PM »
The same stats that conclude angles don't matter also show that players who stick with a standard shot pattern have tighter dispersion patterns than those who switch shots to play the shot the hole calls for.  I guess we would call that a top level strategy, as opposed to a hole based strategy.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #331 on: June 08, 2024, 03:15:03 PM »
I hit the driver 200 to 230 with a slight push or fade (ideally).  I create my own angle by teeing the ball near the right hand marker and aim at the left edge of the fairway around 250 yards out. 


Angles are critical for mid handicappers.  And fun to boot.


But it sounds as if the angle you're describing is the same no matter what the supposed strategy of the hole calls for. I think playing one shot over and over again because it's the one shot shape you hit is not the same notion as playing an angle for a strategy based on the particular design of a golf hole.


This is it.


The premise of this thread - as if it needs to be said again - is not absolute.


It is a flippant title that “angles don’t matter” only in terms of setting up approach shots; and that they matter a lot less than architecture strategy would have us believe.


That is all.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: “Angles Don’t Matter”
« Reply #332 on: June 08, 2024, 05:40:41 PM »
I hit the driver 200 to 230 with a slight push or fade (ideally).  I create my own angle by teeing the ball near the right hand marker and aim at the left edge of the fairway around 250 yards out.
Almost purely visual, as you're likely talking about about less than 1°.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

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