[Kevin_Reilly]

How do you define "over the hill"?

See:


Bland, Casey, Garcia, CHIII, Kaymer, AK, Kokrak, Lee, McDowell, Mickelson, Oosthuizen, Perez (x 100), Poulter, Schwartzel, Stenson, Watson and Westwood are clear examples of players who peaked years ago.  That's what "over the hill" means.


Some of the others never peaked.

[Matthew Lloyd]

How do you define "over the hill"?

See:


Bland, Casey, Garcia, CHIII, Kaymer, AK, Kokrak, Lee, McDowell, Mickelson, Oosthuizen, Perez (x 100), Poulter, Schwartzel, Stenson, Watson and Westwood are clear examples of players who peaked years ago.  That's what "over the hill" means.


Some of the others never peaked.

This reminds me of the GM in MAJOR LEAGUE when discussing the spring training invitees:


“Most of these guys never had a prime…”


Obviously several of these guys had a very good prime - but other than Rahm and Koepka nobody feels like a real loss at this point. Rahm clearly has buyers remorse looking at his not so subtle subtext in interviews.

[Chris Hughes]

How do you define "over the hill"?

See:


Bland, Casey, Garcia, CHIII, Kaymer, AK, Kokrak, Lee, McDowell, Mickelson, Oosthuizen, Perez (x 100), Poulter, Schwartzel, Stenson, Watson and Westwood are clear examples of players who peaked years ago.  That's what "over the hill" means.


Some of the others never peaked.

Niemann, Hatton, Puig, Wolff, Munoz, Ortiz, Reed, Meronk, Ancer, Gooch...

...ever seen any of them play?

Where do you slot them in?

[Michael Morandi]

By little, if any, design of his own, his timing and ability to stay above the fray per the PGA Tour and its rampant greed and stupidity remains impeccable. From deal-making white knight to test pilot correctly pulling the eject button, Mr. Dunne's chess skills are unparalleled. Furthermore, he is a very generous good guy with a big heart who has left a trail of grateful beneficiaries and admirers.

I wouldn't be so sure:

https://twitter.com/desertdufferLLG/status/1790171313786765716

Jimmy wanted to get his, too, and when he wasn't given control… he quit. He's possibly (likely?) as selfish here as anyone.

In cutting Jimmy out of the decision loop, the Tour has made a major mistake--and may well pay dearly for it!

Hmmmmm.

I don’t know Jimmy Dunne and have no reason to doubt his stature in the game of golf. Nor do I question his good spirit and generosity. But I did work at a few major wall street firms and the one Jimmy is associated with is not where the best and the brightest seek out of B school etc. If he is shrewd it’s because he saw opportunity working the small bank circuit that the street heavyweights largely ignored. Good for him.  But as Tom Doak mentioned in his post above, the PIV/PGA announcement was rife with antitrust concerns. Jimmy and Ed should have realized that and sculpted a different framework. Unless, as this post references, they had ideas of running LIV.  They certainly should have seen Congress’ resistance to Saudis virtually owning an American sports institution.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Niemann, Hatton, Puig, Wolff, Munoz, Ortiz, Reed, Meronk, Ancer, Gooch...

...ever seen any of them play?

Where do you slot them in?

The "I don't care about them" slot.

[Chris Hughes]

Niemann, Hatton, Puig, Wolff, Munoz, Ortiz, Reed, Meronk, Ancer, Gooch...

...ever seen any of them play?

Where do you slot them in?

The "I don't care about them" slot.

Says a lot...

...clears it up.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.

It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.

[Jim Hoak]

I think you are being way too cynical, Erik.  Do you know him? 
I do--and he is one of the most selfless, sincerely dedicated guys I know.
What reason do you base your conclusion on?  Speculation or proof?
I can guarantee you the PGA Tour is going to miss him; his leaving sets back the reconciliation of the Tours, as several Players have said.  I just hope not conclusively. 

[Chris Hughes]

Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.

It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.

This "Jimmy is a Saint" narrative is way over the top, just ask anyone who has actually worked for him.

That said he is very smart, very very wealthy, and has a rolodex which is unsurpassed --- there is literally no scenario in which Jimmy would "get something out of it for himself" --- just an absurd statement. 


For Jimmy this constitutes "action", action that he loves being in the middle of, nothing more nothing less.

[Jeff Segol]

I think most people assumed that by getting guaranteed money, a lot of the incentive to work at their game for the LIV players would be eliminated. I think it also was assumed that the loss of that incentive would also dull their games to the point where they wouldn't be competitive in the majors. Keopka's near win at last year's Masters and his PGA win disrupted that assumption. It also suggests Koepka wasn't kidding when he said in past interviews that he really doesn't care about the regular tournaments, only majors.


So far, he and DeChambeau have carried the LIV flag in the majors. Whether Rahm will lose his edge remains to be seen.

[Steve Lapper]

Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.

It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.

This "Jimmy is a Saint" narrative is way over the top, just ask anyone who has actually worked for him.

That said he is very smart, very very wealthy, and has a rolodex which is unsurpassed --- there is literally no scenario in which Jimmy would "get something out of it for himself" --- just an absurd statement. 


For Jimmy this constitutes "action", action that he loves being in the middle of, nothing more nothing less.

I don't think I painted Jimmy Dunne as any saint. I happen to know quite a few people who've spent a good part of their Wall Street careers working at Sandler, O'Neill under Jimmy.  To a tee, each and every one would praise the man as a solid leader and decent guy who has always been eminently approachable. Like any senior Wall Street executive, I'm certain he's had his moments. A family friend has experienced him as a patron of Notre Dame and its golf team. They tell stories of his generosity and connection with some of the student athletes. A Saint, maybe not.....but a good, decent guy trying to do right by the game....I'll go with no less.

[Sean_A]

The Saudis (and to a large extent Russia, too) are playing long-ball and seeking to be more diversified geographically and economically as they prepare for when, based on the new market demand in 10-20 years, oil crawls back to  under $20/barrel and their music stops.


Phil was at the end of storied career and he got to flip the bird to the PGA as he lined his wallet in a spectacular, yet predictable, cash grab.


Norman was going to die on this hill regardless so he finally found deep pocket partners to consummate his revenge-fueled ultimate move over the PGA tour and a "EF You" to Tiger Woods.


Greed + Envy + Money + Spite = POWERful disruptive tailwinds.


But, can the LIV model be sustained?
Will new rising young stars find a home and a purpose there?
Or, will the PGA's new economic incentives now keep the troops loyal while this all plays out?


Unless LIV consistently finds new young talent every year to LIV-it-up with Phil, DJ, Brooksie and Jon, their "league" will be nothing but a bunch of formerly great players now "playing resort courses in shorts" with their friends intramurally.


Rahm's silly little presser yesterday all but revealed his deep buyer's remorse.
Let Poulter flap his pie-hole. He's irrelevant.
Let Phil chirp away his chip on his shoulder caused by Tiger's total dominance over him.
DJ....love him...he's a pure spirit and he did it so he could "make more by working less". Respect.


I dont know jimmy Dunne, but I dont think he makes or breaks golf in America.
Deep down I bet he despises the Saudis and wants to see them squirm. I'm hopeful that some media/private equity combo platter cleans this shit up with fresh billions of new capital in the next 1-2 years and that Jimmy Dunne brokered the whole thing.


Let this 54 hole, shotgun start, no cut, guarantee pay programming play out. It's only watched in Australia.
If new talent doesnt cross over to LIV, then it dies.


Outside of Rahmbo, who else of note has defected in the last year?


My point exactly.

I concur about LIV recruiting a continual crop of promising young players. However, that issue is more related to the utter sham that is the world golf rankings.

Ciao

[Anthony Butler]

Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.

I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

[Mike_Trenham]

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, the folks you have a grudge against are not losing any sleep thinking about you.

[cary lichtenstein]

I've tired of the whole LIV thing, let it be a separate tour

[Joe_Tucholski]

Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.

I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

I've had friends killed by Afghans.  I don't hate all Afghans.


One of my best friends is a Russian citizen.  There are quite a few Russians I would refuse to sit with.

[Lou_Duran]

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, the folks you have a grudge against are not losing any sleep thinking about you.

Pretty deep MT.  Thanks for the reminder.

[Chris Hughes]

Cutting and pasting a singular email between pals, without any real context, is silly and speculative.

It could also be the truth: he was in it as long as he thought he got to get something out of it for himself, and bailed when he realized that wasn't going to happen.

This "Jimmy is a Saint" narrative is way over the top, just ask anyone who has actually worked for him.

That said he is very smart, very very wealthy, and has a rolodex which is unsurpassed --- there is literally no scenario in which Jimmy would "get something out of it for himself" --- just an absurd statement. 


For Jimmy this constitutes "action", action that he loves being in the middle of, nothing more nothing less.

I don't think I painted Jimmy Dunne as any saint. I happen to know quite a few people who've spent a good part of their Wall Street careers working at Sandler, O'Neill under Jimmy.  To a tee, each and every one would praise the man as a solid leader and decent guy who has always been eminently approachable. Like any senior Wall Street executive, I'm certain he's had his moments. A family friend has experienced him as a patron of Notre Dame and its golf team. They tell stories of his generosity and connection with some of the student athletes. A Saint, maybe not.....but a good, decent guy trying to do right by the game....I'll go with no less.

The "Saint" observation was in no way directed toward you, apologies if it seemed as such. 

[Michael Felton]

Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.

I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

My guess is he loves the game (don't think that's really up for discussion) and he felt that it was heading in a bad direction, so he offered up his help to try to steer it back in a better one. Someone at the PGA Tour was smart enough to realize that he could probably help so they said yes and off he went. Now the players, who, while very, very good at putting a small white ball in a small hole, are nevertheless not so good with business savvy and decided they don't want his help anymore, so he's gone.

[Peter Sayegh]

Given all Jimmy Dunne has achieved in life, you have to wonder why he ever wanted to waste his time sitting in meetings trying to create something successful with a bunch of people who killed half his employees - including his best friend - not so very long ago.

I thought the definition of irony in my line of business was the two advertising firms that made the Volkswagen brand what it is in the US today were both founded by Jews. I'm not sure how this Livvy Dunne situation stacks up against that... other than the fact the ad firms (or more accurately their French holding company) made a lot more cash out of those relationships.

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

My guess is...the players, who, while very, very good at putting a small white ball in a small hole, are nevertheless not so good with business savvy...

Mike,

How many players make as much/more money off the course as they do in competition?

Whether they joined LIV or hired an adept agent/team, I'd say they have greater business savvy than most-certainly more than you assume.

[Michael Felton]

Greater business savvy than Jimmy Dunne?


In this instance, from what I've read, they did hire an adept team, but then decided to get rid of them.

[Jim Hoak]

Peter, don't you think the business savvy of most players is simply to hire the right agent?

[Kalen Braley]

Peter,

I could be wrong, but I'd guess for the vast majority of these cases the players are either being paid to show up for a few photo Ops and junkets to press the flesh and be the face of something.  Or getting in as an investor on the ground floor of a new venture as a "silent partner".

But day to say stuff?  Negotiating deals?  Creating detailed business plans and strategies? Much less trying to hammer out something complicated like the PIF/LIV merger?  I'm not seeing it.

[Tom_Doak]

Greater business savvy than Jimmy Dunne?

In this instance, from what I've read, they did hire an adept team, but then decided to get rid of them.

Are we sure that it was the players who wanted him out?


I suppose that's possible, if they don't really want a deal to get done.  But possibly the guy who really doesn't want to see a deal done is the commissioner.  The more "business" guys they have in on it, the more likely his tenure is done.  Whereas some of the players seem to still be true believers in honor, country and the PGA TOUR.  It's possible Jay has even spun it that Jimmy Dunne sold them out to the Saudis, not he.

[Anthony Butler]

Maybe it's my Irish heritage, but I can only conclude that I'm capable of holding a grudge much longer than any of these folks.

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself, the folks you have a grudge against are not losing any sleep thinking about you.

Pretty deep MT.  Thanks for the reminder.

I would agree that actively hating someone can steal your energy... whether that person is aware of your feelings or not. If someone has given me enough reason to actively dislike them - or more important - not to trust them any more, I simply cut that person out of my life. I saw my father do it to his best friend and business partner of 25 years and he never regretted it for a single day.

As far all that relates to the Saudi's, MBS was a teenager when 9/11 happened, so while no-one can hold him accountable for that, his relatives were funneling money to Al Qaeda-linked charities in the 1990/2000s... all while Prince Bandar was in D.C. whispering sweet nothings in the Bush Family's ear on what good friends they were.

I wouldn't trust them as far as you could throw them.

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