[Rob Marshall]

I haven't played there in 12 to 15 years but what I remember is the great par 3's and the width of the 18th fairway. Is there a better set of par 3's on tour?

[Tom_Doak]

I was back there in January after a very long absence.  It is just as radically different when compared to the courses of today, as it was when it opened.  Not sure I could make myself build holes that narrow, and if I did everyone would say I'd gone mad.  It's not just single file wide -- they have done a very good job of tree management, thinning it out in the landing areas, but leaving you to have to shape it around trees on the approach shot if you don't hit a very straight drive.

[Rob Marshall]

First time I played it I played with three members. It was the first and only time I've been told I needed to be on a specific side of the fairway to have a shot into the green.

[Ian Andrew]

I played there in November last year. Found it very playable and not as narrow as its reputation. You certainly had to fit some shots in between trees, on occasion, but not as often as I assumes. But even if you go into the trees, you can find the ball and get it out easily. You'll never loose a ball (except into the water) and that made it far more accommodating than I expected. 18th is a really fun hole to play at the end of round. I also prefer it to almost every Dye course I've ever played. It's really understated in places and charming for the lighter hand he used back then. It deserves more attention than it gets.

[A.G._Crockett]

I played there in November last year. Found it very playable and not as narrow as its reputation. You certainly had to fit some shots in between trees, on occasion, but not as often as I assumes. But even if you go into the trees, you can find the ball and get it out easily. You'll never loose a ball (except into the water) and that made it far more accommodating than I expected. 18th is a really fun hole to play at the end of round. I also prefer it to almost every Dye course I've ever played. It's really understated in places and charming for the lighter hand he used back then. It deserves more attention than it gets.

Agreed on all counts.  I too found it to be more open than I expected, I agree with others that it might be the finest set of par 3’s I’ve ever played.  It was a delight.

[Tim_Weiman]

I played there in November last year. Found it very playable and not as narrow as its reputation. You certainly had to fit some shots in between trees, on occasion, but not as often as I assumes. But even if you go into the trees, you can find the ball and get it out easily. You'll never loose a ball (except into the water) and that made it far more accommodating than I expected. 18th is a really fun hole to play at the end of round. I also prefer it to almost every Dye course I've ever played. It's really understated in places and charming for the lighter hand he used back then. It deserves more attention than it gets.

Ian,


I haven’t played Harbor Town for almost forty years, but I remember it fondly, especially the finish, both #17 and #18. On #18 it was tempting to play safe out right on your tee shot, but I preferred aiming right at the green and it felt great to make a safe landing: not too far or too short or pulled too far left.


Is it my favorite Pete Dye course? Probably not. Enjoyed at least three more, including PGA West, Whistling Straights and Black Wolf Run.

[Rob Marshall]

I played there in November last year. Found it very playable and not as narrow as its reputation. You certainly had to fit some shots in between trees, on occasion, but not as often as I assumes. But even if you go into the trees, you can find the ball and get it out easily. You'll never loose a ball (except into the water) and that made it far more accommodating than I expected. 18th is a really fun hole to play at the end of round. I also prefer it to almost every Dye course I've ever played. It's really understated in places and charming for the lighter hand he used back then. It deserves more attention than it gets.

Agreed on all counts.  I too found it to be more open than I expected, I agree with others that it might be the finest set of par 3’s I’ve ever played.  It was a delight.

I wonder if the hurricane that hit there took out a lot of trees?

[Ian Andrew]

Is it my favorite Pete Dye course? Probably not. Enjoyed at least three more, including PGA West, Whistling Straights and Black Wolf Run.

Mine is The Golf Club by a considerable margin over everything I've gone to see.


The most interesting of all was a visit to the Honors Club.
I found at least 2/3 of Honors Club fabulous, but each time it went to water it lost me.
The contrast between holes done really well and holes I didn't like was unusual.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'll grant you that all four par threes are strong, and they are a handful for the pros, but don't you think four par threes with water are overkill? I wonder how many 15 handicappers play all four without losing a ball.

[Ben Stephens]

Having played Harbour Town before - it is wider than you think and it does ask you questions on how to play it properly. Pete Dye was a Master Tactician when it comes to golf course design.


If I could play again I would have played better knowing which part of the fairway to hit. The par 3s, 4s and 5s are all pretty strong there is not many weak holes there.


It is so flat which is like many courses on Hilton Head Island. People say that Long Cove is the best Dye Course on HHI.


Pity there isn't really any Pete Dye course in the UK it would have spiced things up here - we have to go to Europe to play one.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Having played Harbour Town before - it is wider than you think and it does ask you questions on how to play it properly. Pete


Pity there isn't really any Pete Dye course in the UK it would have spiced things up here - we have to go to Europe to play one.

It is odd that he doesn't have a course in GB&I. He must have been offered a job.

[Rob Marshall]

I'll grant you that all four par threes are strong, and they are a handful for the pros, but don't you think four par threes with water are overkill? I wonder how many 15 handicappers play all four without losing a ball.

Tommy,
Water really isn’t in play on 7 and not too bad on 17. The other two it’s huge.

[John Foley]

I was surprised that it wasn't tighter from what I had heard. A few points:


- Many of the greens are TINY! Especially 18.
- It demands creativity in the shot making.
- Amazed by the aggressive play on #15. That was a tough hole when I played the these guys just hoist the 2nd sht over the trees or sling it around them. Just amazing.

[Mark_Fine]

There are lots of old threads about Harbour Town.  It is an exceptional golf course and one that over the years of my regular play there (has changed my perception and appreciation of trees on certain golf courses).  They can be a great hazard.  There is plenty of room to play golf on this course.  But yes trees have a major influence on play.  They also force shot making (demand moving the ball right to left or left to right or high or low,…. I miss that on many golf courses that are wide open.


Again the beauty of golf having a wide variety of playing fields.  Would we want every course like this - No.  No different then wanting every course to be wide open.  Variety is the spice of golf. 


Speaking of dramatically different (180 degrees different). A few weeks ago I played Harbour Town one day and Yeamans Hall two days later.  That is the beauty of the sport we play to have two great golf experiences that are totally different.  Can’t do that on a tennis court 

[cary lichtenstein]

I played it on a guy trip years ago, was one of my least favorite courses of all time, just too narrow for me, declined to go there on future trips, no fun

[Ben Stephens]

Having played Harbour Town before - it is wider than you think and it does ask you questions on how to play it properly. Pete


Pity there isn't really any Pete Dye course in the UK it would have spiced things up here - we have to go to Europe to play one.

It is odd that he doesn't have a course in GB&I. He must have been offered a job.

There was to be a Dye course in London - called Dye London with the Menai Davis Family who run the Shire London and Inspiration/West London Golf Centre. Unfortunately Pete and Perry passed away.


The Dye London has been renamed the Legacy after Ceri Menai Davis' son who passed away at a very young age.


The Legacy course is now being designed by European Golf Design.


I wouldn't be surprised if there will be a course in the UK in the mold of Pete Dye's design approach in future.

[Tom_Doak]

Pity there isn't really any Pete Dye course in the UK it would have spiced things up here - we have to go to Europe to play one.

It is odd that he doesn't have a course in GB&I. He must have been offered a job.

During Pete's prime years they weren't really building golf courses in the UK, and the ones that were built were built on a shoestring.  I remember going to visit Donald Steel's new course at Woburn with him when it was under construction . . . the budget was 350,000 pounds!


Personally I'm glad they didn't build the course in London, a course from Pete in his 80s or 90s just did not receive the same level of attention as the places where he showed up with the crew at 6:30 every morning.

[Mark_Fine]

Anyone who thinks Harbour Town is tight should play the New Course at St. Andrews. As we all know, it’s not really new, it is well over 100 years old and you can walk single file down most of the fairways with all kinds of hazards on your right and left but no real trees to worry about 

[Dan_Callahan]

I played it on a guy trip years ago, was one of my least favorite courses of all time, just too narrow for me, declined to go there on future trips, no fun

I agree. I didn't hate it, but it's one of the few acclaimed courses I've played that I thought was decidedly average.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I played it on a guy trip years ago, was one of my least favorite courses of all time, just too narrow for me, declined to go there on future trips, no fun

I agree. I didn't hate it, but it's one of the few acclaimed courses I've played that I thought was decidedly average.

+1...Played it once in 2004 or 2005 and it was $250 back then!
Thought it was nice and quirky and the 16-18 home stretch was like being released out of a confined space into the light.


as for 1-15....pass.


I get that Mr. Dye is a master, but his use of trees as dictated strategy for this place is antithetical to the ethos of many ODG GCAs whose courses I personally prefer.

[A.G._Crockett]

I played it on a guy trip years ago, was one of my least favorite courses of all time, just too narrow for me, declined to go there on future trips, no fun

I agree. I didn't hate it, but it's one of the few acclaimed courses I've played that I thought was decidedly average.

I don't know what the rules might have been then, but removing old growth live oaks on the SC coast is NOT a simple matter.  I believe there is permitting involved that makes it difficult, if not impossible to cut down healthy live oaks.  As it should be.


+1...Played it once in 2004 or 2005 and it was $250 back then!
Thought it was nice and quirky and the 16-18 home stretch was like being released out of a confined space into the light.


as for 1-15....pass.


I get that Mr. Dye is a master, but his use of trees as dictated strategy for this place is antithetical to the ethos of many ODG GCAs whose courses I personally prefer.

[Mark_Fine]

Harbour Town is one of those courses where the more you play it the more you appreciate it.  In fact some would be better off not playing it the first time around and just walking it as they might allow their own game to have too much influence on their opinion of the design.  It was ground breaking at the time it opened and in some ways it still is.  It belongs in Ran’s 147 Custodians of the game in my opinion. 

[Ian Mackenzie]

This is from a 2007 response by Ian Andrew to a thread "Classic Architecture and Trees" where Ian summarizes some views on trees that I feel are appropriate context to this discussion on Harbor Town:


Playing down fairways bordered by straight lines of trees is not only unartistic but makes tedious and uninteresting golf. Many green committees ruin one’s handiwork by planting trees like rows of soldiers along the borders of the fairways.  ALISTER MACKENZIE

It is more or less accepted fact that trees are not the best of hazards, for the obvious reason that they unfortunately afford but slight opportunity for the display of golfing skill in extricating the ball from their clutches…but they are undoubtedly charming features in a landscape view.  H.S. COLT

Trees and shrubbery beautify the course, and natural growth should never be cut down if it is possible to save it; but he who insists on preserving a tree where it spoils a shot should have nothing to say about golf course construction.
GEORGE THOMAS
[/color]I have no qualms about removing trees to bring in the sight trees such as a stately oak, hickory or elm. Playing through the woods should not be overdone. It may be quite monotonous. A.W. TILLINGHAST


some other quotes:


"Hills on a golf course are a detriment. Mountain climbing is a sport in itself and has no place on a golf course. Trees in the courses are also a serious defect, and even when in close proximity prove a detriment." -- Charles Blair MacDonald, Scotland's Gift, GOLF, 1928


"As beautiful as trees are, and as fond as you and I are of them, we still must not lose sight of the fact that there is a limited place for them in golf. We must not allow our sentiments to crowd out the real intent of a golf course, that of providing fair playing conditions. If it in any way interferes with a properly played stroke, I think the tree is an unfair hazard and should not be allowed to stand."-- Donald Ross, Golf Has Never Failed Me


How do you possibly square what Dye did at HT in the context of what all of those who came before him have espoused?

[Ben Hollerbach]

This is from a 2007 response by Ian Andrew to a thread "Classic Architecture and Trees" where Ian summarizes some views on trees that I feel are appropriate context to this discussion on Harbor Town:


Playing down fairways bordered by straight lines of trees is not only unartistic but makes tedious and uninteresting golf. Many green committees ruin one’s handiwork by planting trees like rows of soldiers along the borders of the fairways.  ALISTER MACKENZIE

It is more or less accepted fact that trees are not the best of hazards, for the obvious reason that they unfortunately afford but slight opportunity for the display of golfing skill in extricating the ball from their clutches…but they are undoubtedly charming features in a landscape view.  H.S. COLT
Trees and shrubbery beautify the course, and natural growth should never be cut down if it is possible to save it; but he who insists on preserving a tree where it spoils a shot should have nothing to say about golf course construction.
GEORGE THOMAS
I have no qualms about removing trees to bring in the sight trees such as a stately oak, hickory or elm. Playing through the woods should not be overdone. It may be quite monotonous. A.W. TILLINGHAST


some other quotes:


"Hills on a golf course are a detriment. Mountain climbing is a sport in itself and has no place on a golf course. Trees in the courses are also a serious defect, and even when in close proximity prove a detriment." -- Charles Blair MacDonald, Scotland's Gift, GOLF, 1928


"As beautiful as trees are, and as fond as you and I are of them, we still must not lose sight of the fact that there is a limited place for them in golf. We must not allow our sentiments to crowd out the real intent of a golf course, that of providing fair playing conditions. If it in any way interferes with a properly played stroke, I think the tree is an unfair hazard and should not be allowed to stand."-- Donald Ross, Golf Has Never Failed Me


How do you possibly square what Dye did at HT in the context of what all of those who came before him have espoused?

To me, I wonder if there is a disconnect in how we view these quotes about trees today without qualifying changes in playing styles in the game over the century.

What I mean by that is over the last 100+ years since these quotes have been penned the game has evolved greatly towards being almost entirely an aerial one. Back then, the tree would pose a significant penalty to one who already struggled to fly their ball a great distance through the air, creating a potentially over burdensome hazard. Today this is not the case and at times the tree can present the same level of challenge and penalty as a sand bunker may have posed 100 years back. incidentally, at a course such as Harbour Town, the presence of the trees forces a player to work their ball in order to maximize playing angles, something that is applauded about golden age courses.

If we preserve the tree in the same light as it was a century prior, we are ignoring playing changes to the game, we must them contextualize the tree as it exist as a feature within the modern game. [/color]

[Charlie Goerges]

To me, I wonder if there is a disconnect in how we view these quotes about trees today without qualifying changes in playing styles in the game over the century.

What I mean by that is over the last 100+ years since these quotes have been penned the game has evolved greatly towards being almost entirely an aerial one. Back then, the tree would pose a significant penalty to one who already struggled to fly their ball a great distance through the air, creating a potentially over burdensome hazard. Today this is not the case and at times the tree can present the same level of challenge and penalty as a sand bunker may have posed 100 years back. incidentally, at a course such as Harbour Town, the presence of the trees forces a player to work their ball in order to maximize playing angles, something that is applauded about golden age courses.

If we preserve the tree in the same light as it was a century prior, we are ignoring playing changes to the game, we must them contextualize the tree as it exist as a feature within the modern game.

That's a good point, I think you cover the concerns well.


Additionally, I take the ODG's anti-treeness with a little grain of salt. I wonder if it's more of an argument tactic than a hard and fast rule. In addition to trees, none of them had a good word to say about blind shots. And yet, plenty of blind shots (and partially blind shots) were built. Perhaps they overstated the case in words in order to help limit blind shots (and trees for that matter) to only those that worked well? Sort of a classic parental overstatement if you will.

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