[Ira Fishman]

The Dunes Club opened in 1992 I believe, and Sand Hills in 1993. They seem to have kicked off what is the terrific era of sand based modern courses in the US. Two questions:


1. Were they the initiators of the era?


2. Were Mr. Youngscap and Mr. Keiser acting in parallel or influencing each other?


Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

High Pointe (1989) was on sand.  Of course so is everything else in NW Michigan, before and after.


I think I wrote in the GOLF Magazine top 100 recap in 1985 or 87 that sixteen of the top twenty courses in the world were built on sand.  (The exceptions were Oakmont, Augusta, Pebble Beach and Winged Foot.)  Mr. Keiser once told me that was the first time he became aware of the connection.


But to answer your question, Mike was an investor in Sand Hills, and valued Dick Youngscap’s opinion a great deal, to the point he even tried to hire him to be project manager for Bandon Dunes.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think people tend to forget that until this current era, even GB&I links courses were going through a slump. Sure, they were still revered and played but a lot of the British golfing public were more obsessed with “American” style modern design. Water hazards were a new thing for us and the fancy new openings through the 80’s and early 90’s were the courses that were thought of extremely highly.


One of the reasons I called Tom a “pioneer” on the other thread (and please, Ben: You do NOT need to respond) is because the whole movement of reintroducing more minimal courses on sand based, natural sites was so successful over the last 25-30 years, that it influenced everything we appreciate and kickstarted a rediscovery by all of how great links golf is. Of course that might have happened to a lesser extent anyway (quality doesn’t stay hidden for long) but this movement most definitely had a bit-part to play.


Incidentally, one of the other reasons I called him a pioneer (also not mentioned on the other thread) is that he generated one of the first crews to elevate building to a level where the micro-detail was actually starting to mimic what you see on a links. That wasn’t really done in the Golden Age.

[Ira Fishman]

High Pointe (1989) was on sand.  Of course so is everything else in NW Michigan, before and after.


I think I wrote in the GOLF Magazine top 100 recap in 1985 or 87 that sixteen of the top twenty courses in the world were built on sand.  (The exceptions were Oakmont, Augusta, Pebble Beach and Winged Foot.)  Mr. Keiser once told me that was the first time he became aware of the connection.


But to answer your question, Mike was an investor in Sand Hills, and valued Dick Youngscap’s opinion a great deal, to the point he even tried to hire him to be project manager for Bandon Dunes.

Fascinating but I guess not surprising about the connection between the two. Do you know how they learned about each other?


Btw, it is still only six of the GM World Top 20 not built on sand (Oakmont, Augusta, Pebble, Merion, Chicago, and Los Angeles). And I think only eight of the Top 30.

[Tom_Doak]

But to answer your question, Mike was an investor in Sand Hills, and valued Dick Youngscap’s opinion a great deal, to the point he even tried to hire him to be project manager for Bandon Dunes.

Fascinating but I guess not surprising about the connection between the two. Do you know how they learned about each other?

Btw, it is still only six of the GM World Top 20 not built on sand (Oakmont, Augusta, Pebble, Merion, Chicago, and Los Angeles). And I think only eight of the Top 30.





I never asked Mike how he got to know Dick Y.  I knew Dick from when I worked for the Dyes, because of the course he built in Lincoln.  If I had to guess, I'd guess that Ron Whitten introduced the two of them . . . Ron knew both, and a course in the sand hills was a dream of his, too.


I must have misremembered one of the four courses in the top twenty back then, because surely Merion was in the top 20 at the time.  Maybe Winged Foot wasn't?  Chicago Golf Club and LACC were nowhere close to that high back then.

[Ira Fishman]

If my Internet skills are accurate (actually if Planet World's historical lists are accurate), in 1985 and 1987, Pebble, Augusta, Merion, Oakmont, WFW, The Olympic Club, Oakland Hills South, and Muirfield Village were in the GM Top 20. Only Pebble, Merion, and Oakmont were in the Top 15. Oakmont actually was 15.

[Ira Fishman]

Other than the non-USA courses on the list that Ben Hollerbach posted for 1945 to 1980, I cannot identify a single course built on sand.


Ira

[Edward Glidewell]

Other than the non-USA courses on the list that Ben Hollerbach posted for 1945 to 1980, I cannot identify a single course built on sand.


Ira

I assume the Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach was built on sand. I can't say that with 100% certainty, but considering it's just off the beach, it seems likely.

[Tom_Doak]

I assume the Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach was built on sand. I can't say that with 100% certainty, but considering it's just off the beach, it seems likely.

A lot of it would have been sand.


The famous 13th hole, however, was built mostly from a wetland.  When I played it I was surprised how flat and spongy the fairway was . . . then I looked over at the left rough, and there were a bunch of the same shrubs that were off-limits wetlands plants at The Legends.  Didn't take much to connect the dots and realize the entire fairway [except for the last 100 yards or so] was probably a marshy bit at the edge of the lake, that they filled in. NO WONDER the curves of the fairway worked out so well strategically !

[Edward Glidewell]

I assume the Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach was built on sand. I can't say that with 100% certainty, but considering it's just off the beach, it seems likely.

A lot of it would have been sand.


The famous 13th hole, however, was built mostly from a wetland.  When I played it I was surprised how flat and spongy the fairway was . . . then I looked over at the left rough, and there were a bunch of the same shrubs that were off-limits wetlands plants at The Legends.  Didn't take much to connect the dots and realize the entire fairway [except for the last 100 yards or so] was probably a marshy bit at the edge of the lake, that they filled in. NO WONDER the curves of the fairway worked out so well strategically !

Can't say I'm surprised by that -- it's probably a mix of sand and possibly some other filled-in wetland areas beyond the 13th.


By the way, I finally played Heathland at The Legends last year (I think... may have been two years ago; Covid did weird things to time). I don't know how much it's changed from your original vision, but I really enjoyed what currently exists. I'd like to play it again.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Fascinating thread on many levels. But first let me provide some historical facts regarding historical ratings:


--LACC:  On GD:was in top 20 USA from 1975-'89 hitting high (best) in '89 at #15...then fell off a small cliff...was #23 in '91 and #37 in '93...have no idea what caused that drop off.  returned to top 20 in '19 and '21 when it was #19 on both of those.  On GM:  not in Top 20 till 2013 and of course now #10.  On GW...I have created a "merged" GW Top 100 (Modern and Classic merged...based on average 1-10 score) and it was #34 in 2010 and #19 in 2011 (GW published annually)...so that answers next question...Hanse restoration must have finished in late 2010.


--Chicago:  On GD was #33 in 1993 , then #18 in 1995, then #36 in 1997...very very very weird...and double checked to see if my spreadsheet had typos but found coper copies of these years and those were the #'s.  Wonder if GD's software had an issue in 1995 (or if it was smarter than the raters)


--WF:  On GD top 10 1975-2017  (on GM top 10 '91-'03).  Top 15 on GD '91-'20 (excluding '17 at #18 and '05 at #16)


Next question I had was if LACC is to some degree built on sand.  I though the LA area was all desert (or semi desert) going back to the 19th century.  Anyone know the true geological history of the area??


Third question and IMO the most important...is Hall of Fame status.  Architects in Golf Hall in order of admit (including only those admitted primarily of architecture work...so excluding JWN, Crenshaw, etc) are Ross, RTJ Sr, MacKenzie, CBM, Dye, and Tillie.  I do not think there is a single developer or "owner" (other than say Clifford of ANGC) in Hall.  How Youngscap and Keiser are not in today absolutely astounds moi.  And IMO Youngscap deserves to be admitted first of those two because without Youngscap and Sand Hills...who knows what Keiser would have done...I believe Sand Hills made Keiser realize that if you build a fabulous course in a totally remote location, golfers will come (he later leaned they would come in droves)...and that changed the game and initiated the second Golden era.  Yes, Tom's High Pointe opened around '89 but my sense is that it didn't cause the "explosion" (meant in a very positive way) that Sand Hills did around 1995.  BTW that in no way diminishes what Tom did in the late 1980's...it faults the rest of us for not seeing what had starting. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

Other than the non-USA courses on the list that Ben Hollerbach posted for 1945 to 1980, I cannot identify a single course built on sand.


Ira

Using the USDA's Web Soil Survey, it would appear the following US courses are built primarily on Sand:

• Spyglass Hill
• Harbour Town
• Jupiter Hills
• Pine Tree
• The Dunes Club

Note: I did not check all the courses on the list, Just the ones that at face value had the best chance to be built on sand.

[Nick Schreiber]

I can't speak to those courses you've listed Ben, but something I found out (the hard way) during our search for land at Old Barnwell, is that those USDA soil type maps aren't exactly accurate, as there's often a mix of different soils at any given place, and there's also a big difference in terms of percolation rate and erosion control between the various types of sand. I can't tell you how many times I'd look at a property based on the soil maps from MapRight, show up on property, and see nothing but standing water and red clay. Even at OB, a not insignificant amount of the site has clay deposits, sometimes with sand underneath, other times not so much.


I in now way pretend to be anything other than a poorly educated person when it comes to this stuff, so I'm sure there are others who can chime in with more knowledge. My only point is that the line of sandy soil that curves from the panhandle of Florida up through the Sand Hills of NC isn't quite as pure as, say, the soil at Sand Valley or on parts of Long Island.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I completely get that Nick. Without direct knowledge on site it is hart to say for certain, but for the basis of this discussion, I feel it is still a useful kicking off point. 

I tried to correlate the soil breakdown from the USDA to the Area of Interest map where the various soil type were defined. For a place like Harbour Town, the Soil Map listed 8 different soil types, with some form of sand accounting for 89% of the total site. Without knowing more, that seems significant enough to list a potential sandy site.

[Brett Hochstein]

I can't speak to those courses you've listed Ben, but something I found out (the hard way) during our search for land at Old Barnwell, is that those USDA soil type maps aren't exactly accurate, as there's often a mix of different soils at any given place, and there's also a big difference in terms of percolation rate and erosion control between the various types of sand. I can't tell you how many times I'd look at a property based on the soil maps from MapRight, show up on property, and see nothing but standing water and red clay. Even at OB, a not insignificant amount of the site has clay deposits, sometimes with sand underneath, other times not so much.


I in now way pretend to be anything other than a poorly educated person when it comes to this stuff, so I'm sure there are others who can chime in with more knowledge. My only point is that the line of sandy soil that curves from the panhandle of Florida up through the Sand Hills of NC isn't quite as pure as, say, the soil at Sand Valley or on parts of Long Island.

A lot of soil mapping, especially at that scale, is guess work and interpolation between measured/known zones. I remember doing a few mapping exercises in the field in my soils classes in college, and--it seems pretty obvious--but you can't just deep probe an entire area (especially the scale the USGS is working at).  You pick a few spots based on landforms and typical area trends related to such, and you try your best to connect the dots.  There's a science to it, but it's hardly exact--sort of like predicting the weather (or building a golf course!).

[Tom_Doak]

Third question and IMO the most important...is Hall of Fame status.  Architects in Golf Hall in order of admit (including only those admitted primarily of architecture work...so excluding JWN, Crenshaw, etc) are Ross, RTJ Sr, MacKenzie, CBM, Dye, and Tillie.  I do not think there is a single developer or "owner" (other than say Clifford of ANGC) in Hall.  How Youngscap and Keiser are not in today absolutely astounds moi.  And IMO Youngscap deserves to be admitted first of those two because without Youngscap and Sand Hills...who knows what Keiser would have done...I believe Sand Hills made Keiser realize that if you build a fabulous course in a totally remote location, golfers will come (he later leaned they would come in droves)...and that changed the game and initiated the second Golden era.  Yes, Tom's High Pointe opened around '89 but my sense is that it didn't cause the "explosion" (meant in a very positive way) that Sand Hills did around 1995.  BTW that in no way diminishes what Tom did in the late 1980's...it faults the rest of us for not seeing what had starting.

Who gets into the Hall of Fame depends on who is voting, and for that reason, I don't think much of any Hall of Fame.  They seem to be as much about exclusion as inclusion.  So I will skip that part of the discussion.


As to what caused the "explosion", I would say that I think Sand Hills gets a bit too much credit for that, even though you can trace a direct line from Sand Hills to Bandon Dunes [and to Wild Horse and Ballyneal and Dismal River].  Between 1995-2000, I didn't see much of a change in how everybody else went about their business . . . it was just a matter of Bill and Ben and me [and our various associates] starting to attract more work over time.  We already knew the benefits of building in sand, we just needed more opportunities to do it via a few clients willing to take a chance on us.  The copycats started to appear on the heels of Bandon's runaway success.


And though he gets no credit for it, here, Ron Whitten was one of the key people to help make that happen.  Ron was very enthusiastic in recommending Bill and Ben to Dick Youngscap, and very enthusiastic in recommending me to Mike Keiser.  Actually Ron and Dick Y. and Bill Shean were the three people who kept telling Mike I would be fine to work with, when he had his doubts.

[Terry Lavin]

Delete.

[Sean_A]

I think Tobacco Road deserves a chair at the Building on Sand USA table. It is often overlooked, perhaps because it is often kept too soft and the design is a tad radical...not really in keeping with some classic design principles. I don't know for certain but I do think it was influential.

Ciao

[Paul Rudovsky]

Tom--


My sense is that there are two thrusts that led the start of the second golden era. For sure, the use of sand based land was one of the two...but the second may have been just as important...that being that if you built a truly great course (which soon thereafter became if you built several great courses...) in a remote location, golfers would travel to play it/them.  This second thrust was important because of the lack of great land (with a sand based ) availability near major centers of population (and I consider 100-150 miles or less to be "near" as people often drive that far for a weekend...for example The Hamptons and Monterrey Peninsula). 


No question that you and Coore/Crenshaw and a few others deserve recognition for the first, but I think Youngscap was the leader of the second.

[Max Prokopy]

I think Tobacco Road deserves a chair at the Building on Sand USA table. It is often overlooked, perhaps because it is often kept too soft and the design is a tad radical...not really in keeping with some classic design principles. I don't know for certain but I do think it was influential.

Ciao

I agree 100%.  The course is too soft and yet hugely influential, at least on how I enjoy the game.  I'm no architect but that place was a real awakening. 

[Sean_A]

Tom--

My sense is that there are two thrusts that led the start of the second golden era. For sure, the use of sand based land was one of the two...but the second may have been just as important...that being that if you built a truly great course (which soon thereafter became if you built several great courses...) in a remote location, golfers would travel to play it/them.  This second thrust was important because of the lack of great land (with a sand based ) availability near major centers of population (and I consider 100-150 miles or less to be "near" as people often drive that far for a weekend...for example The Hamptons and Monterrey Peninsula). 

No question that you and Coore/Crenshaw and a few others deserve recognition for the first, but I think Youngscap was the leader of the second.

Isn't the thrust predicated upon using sandy sites? Without the sandy sites the entire concept of build in remote locations might not work at all.

On another level, I am not convinced building courses in remote locations which then relies on tourists flying in to remain viable is a great model for sustainable golf. In terms of energy use and pollution footprint its a bit bonkers considering golf is a recreational activity.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Isn't the thrust predicated upon using sandy sites? Without the sandy sites the entire concept of build in remote locations might not work at all.
On another level, I am not convinced building courses in remote locations which then relies on tourists flying in to remain viable is a great model for sustainable golf. In terms of energy use and pollution footprint its a bit bonkers considering golf is a recreational activity.
Ciao

Interesting point the extent to which cheap flights have and will continue to contribute to golf in remote or remot-ish locations. Interesting as well how the price of airport hire cars has risen. The cost of taking your own clubs in a aeroplane too. For internal GB&I flights the cost of the flight can be less than the cost of taking your own clubs along.
Atb

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