[David_Tepper]

https://www.linksmagazine.com/21-best-holes-of-the-21st-century?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=insider11.6.22

[Ally Mcintosh]

Any list leaving out at least one hole from the new nine at Carne is just plain wrong.


Marketing, money and zeitgeist go a long way.


Just saying…

[Niall C]

Ally


Agreed. I'm rubbish at remembering hole numbers but there are a few holes on the new nine at Carne that I readily remember as being excellent.


I'm very surprised that the par 3 11th (?) at Castle Stuart isn't in there. It has all the attributes being a cracking hole that is highly photogenic. The Dumbarnie hole ? OK but... Could probably say the same for the Kingbarns hole, nice green but just a pure slog to get there.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

It's wild that there is so much consensus about what are the greatest holes on the Golden Age courses, and so little consensus about the best holes on modern designs. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think you could argue that it’s either because the old holes have had time to be proven / visited by all… or just that laziness has every writer repeat what the last has said.


What new holes are absolutely nailed on for best in the world in the same way that 10 Riviera or 16 Cypress Point are? In Ireland, it always amazes me that every single publication has 11 At Ballybunion at the top of its list. I mean, it’s a wonderful hole but there are better ones from a playing standpoint. Yet it seems beyond reproach. I just think it’s lazy.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, now that I think about it, a big factor on the older holes is that a lot of them [12-13 Augusta, 17 St. Andrews, etc] have been prominently featured in tournament play, and that creates special attention on them.  But I do think some of it is laziness, or to be more charitable, fear of bucking the consensus choices.


Some of the holes on the new list seem to be there because they mirror the reputation of famous old holes -- the 16th at Cabot Cliffs piggybacks off the 16th at Cypress [even though they are quite different], and the same goes for the Little Devil at Barnbougle as a mirror of the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon.

[Tim Leahy]

Tom, I was thinking the same thing about national exposure and do you think there is any chance one round of the American Express Desert Classic could be played at Stone Eagle? I think some of the holes at Stone Eagle are as spectacular as any on the list and TV would really show them off.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I was thinking the same thing about national exposure and do you think there is any chance one round of the American Express Desert Classic could be played at Stone Eagle? I think some of the holes at Stone Eagle are as spectacular as any on the list and TV would really show them off.

I would bet you at 100:1 odds against that happening.  The ownership of Stone Eagle like to be there in January & February and there is no way they're giving it up for a tournament.  I do agree TV [or any kind of video] really shows it off . . . watching the ball sail against the mountain backdrop is unreal.  But they don't want that sort of publicity.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom D: "It's wild that there is so much consensus about what are the greatest holes on the Golden Age courses, and so little consensus about the best holes on modern designs."

2,750 total golf courses in the U.S. as of 1921...14,300 as of today.

We have more to select from.

[Tom_Doak]

We have more to select from.

That’s a good point.


Also, importantly, we know much more about more of them.  Back in the days of consensus, if I’d tried to insert the 16th at Dornick Hills into the equation, it would just have been ignored because no one else knew it.  The great holes were on Pebble, Riviera, Augusta, etc., because everyone knew them.

[Mike_Clayton]

The irony of 14 at St Andrews Beach being in this list is the intended back tee was never built because a neighbour complained about golfers looking into his house - 100 yards away!
Told trees would be planted to block the view he objected to that as well, saying "I  don't want to lose my view of the course"


Tom might have a different recollection but I think the fairway bunkers were built assuming the extra 35 yards would be added to what is now the back tee.  They are more in play for a lot more players from further back.
Fortunately they sort of keep it cleared just enough to I can get back in there and play a tee shot.

[Kevin Pallier]

The good thing about the list provided is that I believe almost all are accessible re: public play

[Thomas Dai]

Note how many of the 21 specified have views over the ocean or a significant body of water.
Atb

[Steve Lapper]

Omitting any holes whatsoever from the likes of Friars Head, Ballyneal, Caprock Ranch, Tara Iti, Les Bordes, Sheep Ranch, Bandon Trails, or Rock Creek Cattle renders this list rather pathetic and wholly illegitimate IMO.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Steve,


Lofoten Links is on there.


It is only 21 holes built in 22 years after all. So you can’t have everything.


What I do think you can have is the net cast wider.


That said - to Tom’s point - is there a consensus on even 2 or 3 holes that definitely should be on a list like this? I couldn’t tell you, for instance, what are clearly Tom’s best holes or C&C’s best holes.  Everyone nominates different ones.


Perhaps the most frequent one I see named over and over is Barnbougle 7th.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The good thing about the list provided is that I believe almost all are accessible re: public play

It's designed to be user friendly, for visitors and advertisers

Portrush 7th?   I don't think so. The worst hole on the course.... 8th is a better new hole.

Overall the list is very safe. Not one outlier from a non name course? A controversial hole?

From Sean's tour of Covesea - you get views too...

a sub 100 yard par 3. Hole 5

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,69959.msg1686061.html#msg1686061

[Dan_Callahan]

I've got to say, every one of those holes looks pretty damn great to me. I've only played a few of them, but I would absolutely have the 4th at St. Pat's on my list. And Tony, I loved the 7th at Portrush. Watched David Duval take like a 13 on that hole. It is interesting (but not surprising) that so many of the holes include a body of water. Take the Cape Wickham hole ... would that be anything special absent the ocean presence? (Honest question, not a criticism ... I've never been there.) It's great to see holes at courses like Sand Valley and Wine Valley hold their own, even though there isn't even a hint of water in the photos.

[Carl Nichols]

We have more to select from.

That’s a good point.


Also, importantly, we know much more about more of them.  Back in the days of consensus, if I’d tried to insert the 16th at Dornick Hills into the equation, it would just have been ignored because no one else knew it.  The great holes were on Pebble, Riviera, Augusta, etc., because everyone knew them.

How many courses have been built this century?  I would think fewer than the 2,750 that existed in 1921.  But I agree we do know a lot more about them. 

[Tom_Doak]

The irony of 14 at St Andrews Beach being in this list is the intended back tee was never built because a neighbour complained about golfers looking into his house - 100 yards away!
Told trees would be planted to block the view he objected to that as well, saying "I  don't want to lose my view of the course"

Mike,


Maybe that means that back tees are not as important as we think they are!

[Niall C]

I think folk are getting a bit too exercised over this. It's clearly an entertainment piece rather than a serious attempt at listing the best holes although obviously there are some very good holes listed.


Tony


I can't imagine the owners of Covesea advertising in Links Magazine !


Niall

[David_Tepper]

"I think folk are getting a bit too exercised over this"

Niall -

Good point. As the articles states in the opening paragraph "Here, in no particular order, are 21 of our favorites." Despite the headline, no claim is made that these are the very best 21 holes.

The list is likely the result of 3 or 4 guys on the magazine's staff sitting around a conference table (or on a Zoom call) and discussing courses that they have played or seen or heard of. The fact that 9 different countries and multiple states in the US are represented shows they at least made the effort to cast a reasonably wide net.

DT

[Mike_Clayton]

The irony of 14 at St Andrews Beach being in this list is the intended back tee was never built because a neighbour complained about golfers looking into his house - 100 yards away!
Told trees would be planted to block the view he objected to that as well, saying "I  don't want to lose my view of the course"

Mike,


Maybe that means that back tees are not as important as we think they are!

Ha - They keep it sort-of cleared back there and I often play from where the tee would have been. Everything - the green, the mid-fairway bunker and the ridge work better from back there.
And it's not so easily drivable for the kids as it is now off the 'front' tee.

[Mike Hendren]

The 17th at Mossy Oaks is dramatic but shocking to see on this list.

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