[mike_beene]

is it possible to design a course challenging to a short hitter with a mid handicap and challenging enough to a tour player without using multiple tees?

[Peter Flory]

I believe that was the original design at Mill Road Farm (the Lasker estate course- NLE).  I'm not 100% sure that they actually kept it like that for any period of time, but I know for sure that they went with separate tees sometime after it was built. 


The compensation for higher handicaps in that case was that the fairways were generous and there was only 1 water hazard and virtually no OB. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Sheep Ranch as was?


I would suggest it is but not as many would think. I think you are looking more at shorter courses where the 'back' markers are in front of the daily tees but on the same tee pad. This makes it possible to have Par 3s for the lower handicappers and par 4 for the mid to higher handicappers. The same goes for par4/5s.


Jon

[Nicolas Joakimides]

No !


Unless a par 74 , narrow wooden course with a lot of 90 degree dog-leg and 12 blind shots is turned into a par 64 !

Or two tees with a 180 yards gap !

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I just played 5 rounds at Harbour Town from 4 different sets of tees. The challenge didn't vary by more than 5% from the back to the front. So I would say yes.

[Thomas Dai]

is it possible to design a course challenging to a short hitter with a mid handicap and challenging enough to a tour player without using multiple tees?

I would like to think yes, but it would probably have to be pretty short yardage holes with a high temptation factor for the tour players but optional safer routes for the lessor player. And then there’d be the handicap allocation as tour players are already way better than +hcp ams whereas mid-hcp ams are just that.
Atb

[Kyle Harris]

Last time I checked it is extremely difficult to shoot 54 from any set of tees.


The golf course isn't too short - you're just not making enough putts.

[Niall C]

No !


Unless a par 74 , narrow wooden course with a lot of 90 degree dog-leg and 12 blind shots is turned into a par 64 !

Or two tees with a 180 yards gap !

 

Nicolas

Fundamentally I think you are wrong. A mix of side hazards and carries can challenge anyone. Perhaps harder to do in the modern game where the ground is kept softer and the percentage of carry in the distance a shot goes is greater, but surely still doable.

It just takes some thought and a willingness to think in terms of a playing corridor rather than of set landing areas which dictate the position of tees for players of different ability.

Niall

[Mark_Fine]

It all depends on how you define challenge but I would say NO. 


John if you put the tour players on the forward tees at Harbour Town someone would shoot 54!  However, for a mid handicap golfer, the different tee distances won’t matter nearly as much.  Most of those golfers will still struggle to hit greens in regulation from any set of tees and it will come down more to putting and short game.  For the best golfers it will be a different matter as they will turn par fours into eagle holes and someone with a hot putter and great short game will light it up. 

On the other hand, if it is strictly a putting course, then yes as there are some mid handicappers that are great putters comparable to the pros.

[Peter Pallotta]

Last time I checked it is extremely difficult to shoot 54 from any set of tees.

The golf course isn't too short - you're just not making enough putts.

That's the thing about golf, isn't it -- among all games/sports, the game where we're least able to think of ourselves better than we actually are, so exacting and precise is the measuring stick. And yet there's no game around where participants more widely & consistently find reasons to think themselves better than they are -- moving from one set of tees to another throughout a round, honouring 'par' one day and dismissing it completely the next, remembering (or seeming to remember) the one & only 270 yard drive we've ever hit and somehow calling it our 'average', and most of all granting each-other (in the grandest collective lie in all of sport) all manner of short putts all day long, and day after day -- all the while pretending to agree upon, and to celebrate, golf's wonderfully unique equalizing principle i.e. that a 2 foot putt is worth the same as a 300 yard drive, i.e. one stroke. And then in the same breath we turn around a mock the medieval theologians who spent their lives arguing about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin! All of which is to say: of course you can challenge everyone and all skill levels from one set of tees. But it takes all involved, from architects to supers to golfers, to get real and to stop lying to themselves (and to their friends).       
   

[John Kavanaugh]

Why always focus on the pro who gets hot when half the field misses the cut? Harbour Town will challenge any golfer from any tee on any given day.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like the UK system. On most courses male players just play off the same set of tees. I don't know how it affects scores but it doesn't seem to upset anyone.

[jeffwarne]

I like the UK system. On most courses male players just play off the same set of tees. I don't know how it affects scores but it doesn't seem to upset anyone.

+1
Palmetto does it every day and has (at least) 2 current PGA Tour members
It certainly baffles my game

[Mark_Fine]

John,
I generally do not focus on the tour player but in this case Mike’s question was geared toward them.  I agree with you that Harbour Town would present a challenge of some kind from any set of tees (that is case on most any decent golf course especially with a good set of greens because you still have to putt).  But without a doubt the scores would be much lower and MANY tour players would shoot in the 50’s not just the hot ones. 
Mark

[Mark_Fine]

I agree about the UK system and that most male players tee off from the same tees and the challenge seems fine but the question was presenting similar challenge for the “tour players” from those same tees and I would say NO.  Tour players play a different game. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Every course has some people who play better than others. Please let's not advocate that we all shoot the same score.

[Duncan Cheslett]

At Ganton last year we played off the forward tees in the morning and found bunkers galore. The course was consequently a brute.


In the afternoon we were invited to play from the back tees and actually found the course easier because we couldn't reach the fairway bunkers.


So Yes, I'm sure it is possible. Just pepper the fairways with penal bunkers 280 - 330 yards from the tee! 

[Tom_Doak]

It can be done.  "Challenging" does not necessarily mean causing high scores.  It means giving players shots they find exciting and difficult.  A Tour pro could find a 250-yard par-4 from the ladies' tee, to a small green, quite challenging.


We have already had lots of discussion on this topic regarding my new project in Wisconsin.  I'm all for the British model; the client generally prefers to give customers a tee wherever they want. 


Perhaps the compromise is to put out one set of boxes, but then also tell guests they can play from the red or white or blue scorecard yardage if they prefer.  My feeling is that if you put out 3-4 sets of markers, players start thinking of the holes in the same terms they do anywhere else . . . but if you mix up "the boxes" and put a few tees forward and a few back, everyone could find that interesting.


To me, the key factor is that "interesting" usually means "slightly uncomfortable", so giving players six choices to find a "comfortable" tee dumbs down the experience for them.  Of course a lot of Americans seem to prefer it that way!  It all goes back to what an old friend of mine once said, "Americans are going to ruin golf."

[Brock Lynch]

is it possible to design a course challenging to a short hitter with a mid handicap and challenging enough to a tour player without using multiple tees?

For this discussion, please define challenging. If you mean resistance to scoring, I would say no for obvious reasons. If you mean interesting and engaging, I would say yes.

[Brock Lynch]

It can be done.  "Challenging" does not necessarily mean causing high scores.  It means giving players shots they find exciting and difficult.  A Tour pro could find a 250-yard par-4 from the ladies' tee, to a small green, quite challenging.


We have already had lots of discussion on this topic regarding my new project in Wisconsin.  I'm all for the British model; the client generally prefers to give customers a tee wherever they want. 


Perhaps the compromise is to put out one set of boxes, but then also tell guests they can play from the red or white or blue scorecard yardage if they prefer.  My feeling is that if you put out 3-4 sets of markers, players start thinking of the holes in the same terms they do anywhere else . . . but if you mix up "the boxes" and put a few tees forward and a few back, everyone could find that interesting.


To me, the key factor is that "interesting" usually means "slightly uncomfortable", so giving players six choices to find a "comfortable" tee dumbs down the experience for them.  Of course a lot of Americans seem to prefer it that way!  It all goes back to what an old friend of mine once said, "Americans are going to ruin golf."

Tom,


This brings back memories of a post from the past. I agree with you on almost all of what you say. When a course becomes "too uncomfortable" for some because of length, then there are two ways to go; Keep the one tee and tell the player to play somewhere else or offer another tee so that the player finds the course "interesting" and "slightly uncomfortable". Otherwise, I think you are correct.


P.S.


How do you feel about Tobacco Road? Uncomfortableness is everywhere!! Too much? Just right?


Cheers

[Kalen Braley]

In the absence of a definition of challenging, I would say very easily.

10 yard wide fairways, long rough, and smaller than Pebble beach greens... is certainly going to be "challenging"for everyone!

[Thomas Dai]

It can be done.  "Challenging" does not necessarily mean causing high scores.  It means giving players shots they find exciting and difficult.  A Tour pro could find a 250-yard par-4 from the ladies' tee, to a small green, quite challenging.
We have already had lots of discussion on this topic regarding my new project in Wisconsin.  I'm all for the British model; the client generally prefers to give customers a tee wherever they want. 
Perhaps the compromise is to put out one set of boxes, but then also tell guests they can play from the red or white or blue scorecard yardage if they prefer.  My feeling is that if you put out 3-4 sets of markers, players start thinking of the holes in the same terms they do anywhere else . . . but if you mix up "the boxes" and put a few tees forward and a few back, everyone could find that interesting.
To me, the key factor is that "interesting" usually means "slightly uncomfortable", so giving players six choices to find a "comfortable" tee dumbs down the experience for them.  Of course a lot of Americans seem to prefer it that way!  It all goes back to what an old friend of mine once said, "Americans are going to ruin golf."

It ought to be possible for a course to have say 3 or 4 overall total yardages with each hole having 3 or 4 different tee pad positions but no specific colour of tee marker assigned to each specific tee pad.


This way by simply moving the different coloured tee blocks between the different tee pads you could mix the colour of tee to a different tee pad on pretty much a daily basis with different levels of challenge per hole each day.


Thus on say a Mon the specific tee marker colours could be in 18 very different positions to where they could be on a Tues or a Wed etc etc, ie some days say the ‘yellow’ could be on the front pad of the 1st hole one day but on the middle-back pad the next day etc.


Just move the different coloured markers onto the different tee pads on a regular basis.


With say 3 or 4 different tee pads and 3 or 4 different colours of marker you’d effectively have something like 54 or 72 different length/challenge holes available for play.


I hope my words have explained this the way I’d like them too!


Atb

[Tom_Doak]

How do you feel about Tobacco Road? Uncomfortableness is everywhere!! Too much? Just right?

Brock:


I put Tobacco Road in the Gourmet's Choice for The Confidential Guide.  I think it's cool, but I don't think it's a great course.


I've recounted before my experience there, playing with a couple of very very good junior players.  Their dad had a hell of a time finding a tee for them on each hole where they could actually play the hole without having to lay up, or face a carry they couldn't make.  Sometimes they could play back, sometimes they had to play way up . . .


IMHO, that's because there is a lot of stuff going on there that's extraneous.  The course could have a lot more grass at the margins and still be very exciting to play . . . but it always goes for the visual wow factor, sometimes at the expense of playability.


Its saving grace is that it's relatively short - 6600 yards from the back.  If there was another set of tees at 7200 and everybody played it 400 yards longer, it would be awful . . . see my feelings about Royal New Kent.

[Tom_Doak]

It ought to be possible for a course to have say 3 or 4 overall total yardages with each hole having 3 or 4 different tee pad positions but no specific colour of tee marker assigned to each specific tee pad.


This way by simply moving the different coloured tee blocks between the different tee pads you could mix the colour of tee to a different tee pad on pretty much a daily basis with different levels of challenge per hole each day.


Thus on say a Mon the specific tee marker colours could be in 18 very different positions to where they could be on a Tues or a Wed etc etc, ie some days say the ‘yellow’ could be on the front pad of the 1st hole one day but on the middle-back pad the next day etc.


Just move the different coloured markers onto the different tee pads on a regular basis.


With say 3 or 4 different tee pads and 3 or 4 different colours of marker you’d effectively have something like 54 or 72 different length/challenge holes available for play.


I hope my words have explained this the way I’d like them too!

Thomas:


I have recounted here before that when I first went to Carnoustie, the tees were orange, green and yellow.  Each of them used six regular tees, six forward tees, and six of the Open Championship tees.  So, the day I first played it, I played #16 from 248 yards, then on #17 we were forward and could actually carry the far crossing of the burn, and then #18 we played from the normal men's tee. 


It was very cool, and since there were no long carries over waist-high grass, you could play a few holes from the Open tees and actually finish them.  You didn't expect to make par on those holes, but if you did it was a real thrill !


That's a great solution for a normal, 6800-yard course.  For the 6100-yard course I'm planning now, I don't think we have to move things around very much.  A couple of the long par-4's might play like par-5's for most guys, but that just means there are two holes that play like par-5's total, because there aren't any real par-5's on the course.  One of the par-3's might be better played short of the green, like the 16th at Carnoustie -- but again, what's wrong with that?  Par might be 68, but the target score for most guys would still be around what they shoot on a regular par-71 or 72 course.

[mike_beene]

I expect lower scores from better players. By "challenging" I mean would it still make their skills relevant? Would playing it frequently keep their skills developing? Can it be interesting to all?

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