[Mike Feeney]

Concord CC is in Mass., it was a shortish tired Ross of 6400y or so before a Prichard resto-reno in 2005 or so.  It's always been low-key because it's tough to get into as a member.  After Prichard, its now 6800y par 70, and they've really maxed out its potential in the best way possible.  Totally recommended to check out...I have it right up against the top tier of Mass. courses (Essex, Myopia, TCC, OS, BGC, Salem, and Kitt), so comparable to a Winchester/Longmeadow/Charles River...and I like it better than those three!   


My wife's parents belong there so I play it 4-5 times per year, and it's become an MGA darling...hosting the Mass. Amateur and some other local invitationals so it has a good following.

Ross Designed 1st 9 in 1915, second 9 10 years later.  Agree with Brad, wonderful.

[Derek_Duncan]

Timuquana in Jacksonville is probably a 6.


Ron Prichard speaks highly of the greens at Triggs Memorial in Providence, but the rest of the course could use a little refurbishment.

[Joe Zucker]

For solid, but not great, Ross courses in Ohio, I would add Manikiki on the east side of Cleveland.  I don't have enough experience to say if it would make the top 100, but I would easily put it into the same class as Denison and the Ross holes at Mohawk.  It's certainly in need of some work (particularly cart path removal), but there are a lot of interesting holes there.


I second Brian's nomination of Shaker Heights.  It's definitely a Doak point above the other three I mentioned here.  I would also agree that Ravisloe belongs somewhere on the list.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting to ponder the the DS scale numbers of the courses indicated above in relation to the DS scales of other courses elsewhere. A different perspective.
Atb

[Ira Fishman]

Not sure it counts because of the subsequent substantial alterations, but he did the original design for Congressional.


Ira

[V_Halyard]

I would lobby for an elevation of Cedar Rapids' DS Scale rating. I believe Ran would now back me up after his post-Confidential Guide publication visit and his Courses by Country overview


... But you knew I was going to write this.  

[BHoover]

It’s never going to get a lot of acclaim because it’s far off the beaten path, but Springfield CC west of Columbus, OH (45 minutes) is well worth a visit.

[Phil McDade]

I count 112 courses that I've played that Ross has worked on at some point.

I think the top 20 above is great, then it comes down to splitting hairs.  Sometimes its hard to combine the original and the restoration for some of these.

The biggest omissions on my list are:
Concord CC (7 for me, easily as good as all in the back half of the CG courses)
Ravisloe (6, seconded!)
Sedgefield (6, seconded!)
Manchester in NH (6). 
I have the Balsams as a 6 if they ever re-open it...just such a great location and good course on a tough site.


My next tier among the omitted so far in the CG81 would be Camden, Irondequoit, Hope Valley, and Bedford Springs.  Newport is not really a Ross despite his working there, so I'm not listing that one.


The worst ones out of my 112 Ross courses played?
-Donald Ross GC in Ft. Wayne...DJR did the front nine but this place is pretty run down, and the back nine actually is more interesting.
-Newton Commonwealth in Newton, MA...lost a few holes to housing in the 50s, now a 5500y bandbox with enough space for 12 of the 18 holes.
-then it comes down to a few New England courses with 9 Ross holes that are quite nice, and 9 from someone else that are not good at all...Biddeford-Saco and Cape Neddick in Maine come to mind, also Wentworth in NH, which has ocean frontage.
-Ponkapoag...Ross 18 split between two courses, #1 was recently redone by Brian Silva but mainly to fix drainage...this facility has been a common ping pong ball in city politics, the course and its patrons suffering the most.
-Wellshire in Denver...good bones, just really tired.

Brad:


Have you played Point Judith? Michael Fay thought highly enough of a short par 3 there to include it in his book about Ross courses: http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/michael-fay/


Doak 5?

[Joe Hellrung]

I'm playing Roaring Gap in June and will try to get some photos to share. 

Brunswick CC (Ga) belongs on the list, probably bottom tier, just for the greens. 

Tom,

Side question.


I note that Roaring Gap and Mid Pines have only 2x7. Does that mean the other 2 have either not seen them or have seen them and given them lower numbers and if the second is the case given they have both been recently masterfully restored did they by chance see them before the restorations.

If you had the book, you would see that Roaring Gap has only been visited by Ran and myself.  [I saw it before the recent work.]  Masa saw Mid Pines many years ago, before all the recent work, and rated it quite low, but that doesn't hurt it the way I've ranked them, unless he would also have given it a 7.


There are lots of these courses that only one or two of us have seen, so I would not put too much stock in the order they're listed.  As two examples, I was the only one to rate Brookside (OH) and Minikahda, both of which I saw many years ago, and rated lower than most people.  One of the softer touches in our foursome almost certainly would have given them higher marks.

[Brad Tufts]

Brad:


Have you played Point Judith? Michael Fay thought highly enough of a short par 3 there to include it in his book about Ross courses: http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/michael-fay/


Doak 5?

Unfortunately I can't say that I have.  My RI experience is sorely lacking given that I work about 20 miles from it!  According to the DRS, Ross worked on 11 courses in RI, more than one of every six in existence in the state today.  They are Agawam Hunt, Metacomet, Misquamicut, Newport, Point Judith, RICC, Sakonnet, Triggs, Wannamoisett, Warwick, and Winnapaug.  I have only played the blue ones.

[Ted Sturges]

Tom,


A couple of others mentioned Springfield (OH) CC.  I believe it to be a Doak 6.


Also, please add Dayton (OH) CC.  I believe it to be a 5.


...and Miami Valley CC (also in Dayton, OH).  It needs some help, but fixed up would be a 6 at least.


TS

[Chris DeToro]

I didn't see any mention of these:


Hyannisport--I'd give it a solid 6
Point Judith--I'd give it a 5, but that's probably more due to my relative ranking of the other Ross courses in the area
Muskegon--Someone mentioned this and I'd second that one
Warwick (RI)--5

[Ed Homsey]

I am far from having significant experience with Ross courses, though I've played three of the Pinehurst area courses mentioned and, of course, the Ross courses in Rochester.  Of all that I've played, the one I'd play today, or every day, is Teugaga.  I notice that Bellvue, in Syracuse, and Irondequoit, in Rochester aren't listed.  Guess they don't make the cut.  Which sorta confirms my impression of them.


I am a little touchy about Camden being listed as a Ross course.  I'm well aware of Ross's "remodeling" of Travis's course in1939, but as Kris Spence noted, in his Restoration/Renovation Master Plan Report for Camden, Ross made very few changes to the original routing done by Travis, e.g. quoting from Kris's report, "lengthed the 246 par 3 5th to its current 320 yard par 4, shortened the 350 yard par 4 6th to the current 225 yard par 3, and eliminated Traviss' original 2nd hole and built the existing 12th hole.  Ross rebuilt all the greens (previously they were the undulating sand greens that Travis built), and redid the bunkering.  Would that qualify as remodeling, redesign, or?  And, should he be given sole credit for the course?

[Tom_Doak]

Interlachen would seem to be a strong candidate for this list, perhaps as high as a Doak 7 (in comparison, I'd give Minneapolis GC a 6).

I wasn't sure whether Interlachen should be credited to Ross or to William Watson, so I hadn't included it.  If it is definitely more Ross, then it got two 7's and a 6 in the book.


I will start compiling the suggestions based on the following rules:


For any new course mentioned, I will take the first two scores stated here as its two Doak scale grades, and rank it accordingly.
If we only had one grade on it, and there is strong consensus [like the Minnesota ranking] that it should be a point higher, then it shall be.

[Tom Bagley]

Tom: 
Oak Hill (MA), where I am a member and where you and Bruce Hepner did some work was a Doak 5 in an earlier edition of the CG and is now a 5-6.  Since you worked on the course, I found additional information on Ross' redo of the Stiles front nine that confirms that Ross re-designed all of Stiles' greens - six of them in 1928 and the remainder in the late 1930s, perhaps with Orrin Smith on site.  As you may recall, subsequently four of the front nine greens were changed by Cornish & Robinson, with two of those being redone by you, Bruce and Jim Urbina.

I am also a member of Concord CC, and since others have already nominated and seconded it, I guess I am left to "third" the nomination.  It is a very strong golf course, built in two stages as previously mentioned and brilliantly routed over some dramatic terrain.  The 2nd and 4th are two of the most memorable Ross holes one will ever see due to Ross' ingenuity in "finding" these holes - augmented by some earth-moving.  It is easily a Doak 6 if not higher.  It is hosting the 2018 Ouimet Memorial Championship, 2020 New England Amateur and 2022 Massachusetts Amateur.

[Mark Saltzman]

Is the Biltmore Resort course in Florida Ross? Probably a 5 and one of the better options in the area.


Bedford Springs, PA - 6


Chattanooga, TN - 5


CC of Waterbury, CT - 6


Rosedale (Canada) - 5


Hope Valley, NC - 6


Hyannisport, RI - 6


Memphis, TN - 5


Mimosa Hills, NC - 6


Mountain Brook, AL - 5


Riviera, FL - 5

[Mark_Fine]

Wow for a group that doesn't like lists, this thread is getting lots of attention     


Tom,
I have played A LOT of Ross courses but don't have them all labeled with a Doak scale number (even though I use that scale a lot).  If I get time I will add to your list.  I am anxious to see what results from this 

[Rick Shefchik]

Interlachen would seem to be a strong candidate for this list, perhaps as high as a Doak 7 (in comparison, I'd give Minneapolis GC a 6).

I wasn't sure whether Interlachen should be credited to Ross or to William Watson, so I hadn't included it.  If it is definitely more Ross, then it got two 7's and a 6 in the book.

Interlachen is much more Ross than Watson - almost a total redesign. In fact, it is much more a Ross than is WBYC, where Watson's original layout seems to have been retained by Ross when he arrived later to do some revisions.

[Tom_Doak]

Additions so far:


7 6   Concord CC


6 6   Mimosa Hills, Springfield (OH), Sedgefield, Hyannisport


6 -   Hyde Park, Columbus CC, Congress Lake, Manchester (NH), Timuquana, CC of Waterbury


6 5   Memphis CC, Hope Valley, Ravisloe [upgraded], Shaker Heights, Minneapolis GC, Bedford Springs, Oak Hill (MA), Muskegon


5 5   LuLu


5 -   Myers Park, Shennecossett, CC of Salisbury, Catawba, Irondequoit, Manikiki, Dayton CC, Point Judith, Warwick (RI), Chattanooga, Rosedale, Mountain Brook, Riviera (FL)

[Peter Pallotta]

My goodness - seeing it like this:
If, as a class, the 'average English course' (Doak 5-6) is the gold standard for fine, playable, sustainable, walkable golf that can be enjoyed everyday by a wide-range of skill sets, Mr. Ross managed single-handedly to create 100+ of these courses right across a goodly portion of the United States -- an entire 'class' of high-quality golf all by himself, and also added at least a dozen+ exceptional/great courses to that same landscape while hardly ever disturbing the land itself.
What a truly remarkable career.

[Tom_Doak]

My goodness - seeing it like this:
If, as a class, the 'average English course' (Doak 5-6) is the gold standard for fine, playable, sustainable, walkable golf that can be enjoyed everyday by a wide-range of skill sets, Mr. Ross managed single-handedly to create 100+ of these courses right across a goodly portion of the United States -- an entire 'class' of high-quality golf all by himself, and also added at least a dozen+ exceptional/great courses to that same landscape while hardly ever disturbing the land itself.
What a truly remarkable career.

Indeed.  That's why I wanted to start the thread.


On the other hand, he only got to a 6 about 1/4 of the time, and to a 5 maybe half the time.  So he would probably be roasted here if he was active today.      

[Cory Lewis]

Here are the 85 Ross courses I've played that I would rate 5 or better.  Hope it helps.

Alamance	5		Kennett Square	5
Aronimink	7		Lake Sunapee	5
Augusta CC	6		Linville	6
Barton Hills	6		Lu Lu	5
Bedford Springs	7		Metacomet	5
Belleview Biltmore	5		Miami Valley	5
Beverly	7		Mid Pines	7
Biltmore Forest	6		Mimosa Hills	6
Broadmoor (IN)	6		Minikahda	7
Brookside	8		Monroe	6
Cape Fear	5		Mountain Ridge	7
Carolina	7		Myers Park	6
Catawba	5		Northland	8
Cedar Rapids	8		Oak Hill (East)	5
Charles River	6		Oak Hill (West)	6
Charlotte	6		OaklandHills(S)	7
Chattanooga	5		Oyster Harbors	6
Cherokee	5		Pinehurst #2	9
Chester Valley	5		Pine Needles	6
Chevy Chase	5		Plainfield	7
Columbus	5		Raleigh	6
Congress Lake	7		Ravisloe	6
CC of Asheville	5		Rhode Island	6
CC of Buffalo	8		Roaring Gap	7
CC of York	5		Rolling Rock	7
East Lake	6		The Sagamore	6
Essex County	9		Salem	7
Forsyth	5		Schuylkill	6
Fountain Head	5		Scioto	6
Franklin Hills	7		Sedgefield	5
French Lick	7		Seminole	9
Glens Falls	6		Shaker Heights	6
Greensboro CC	5		Southern Pines	5
Grove Park Inn	5		Timuquana	6
Gulph Mills	7		Torresdale	5
Highlands	6		Vesper	6
Holston Hills	8		Wannamoisett	9
Hope Valley	7		Whitensville	7
Hyannisport	6		White Bear	8
Hyde Park	5		Winchester	6
Idle Hour	5		Woodhill	6
Interlachen	8		Worcester	6
Inverness	6

[Ted Sturges]

Tom,


Thought of a couple more.


Belleair CC (Clearwater, FL)    5       IT is actually 36 holes, I have only played the "better course", and it was a 5.


Dunedin Golf Club  (Dunedin, FL, just north of Clearwater).   This one is also a 5, but might be a 7 if restored.  Dunedin was home to the PGA of America for many years.


TS

[Ted Sturges]

One more...


Sara Bay CC  (Sarasota, FL)        6


Very cool place.  Bobby Jones apparently hung out there quite a bit prior to building ANGC.


TS

[Tim Martin]

I would add Knickerbocker, Vesper and Belmont in the Doak 6 range.

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