[Michael Whitaker]

Eat your heart out, boys! You should be so lucky to have the honor to wear the Deal colors.

[Ben Stephens]

Eat your heart out, boys! You should be so lucky to have the honor to wear the Deal colors.

Mike,


I absolutely refuse to play you in your lucky Deal socks knowing that a hammering is due to take place! 


It can be a privilege to wear unique knee high socks associated with a highly regarded club


B

[John Mayhugh]

What would have been inconvenient or in any way costly for someone in the shop to fetch a pair of rain pants from the back so the lad could remain in compliance without having to dig deep into his pockets?  It is the little extras that people and clubs do, most often with little notice or bother, that make a great impression.

Dig deep into his pockets? You can't be serious. I was in Scotland around the same time as Garland. I was there for five days of golf and spent over $2k not counting airfare. Granted, I waste more money in golf shops than many people, but also the most I paid for any day of golf was about $200. Even if the Bayleys were especially frugal, the trip had to cost $4k for the two of them. In such context, is a pair of trousers that cost $70 or whatever really that impactful? Shorts and long socks would probably have been cheaper. So might purchasing rain pants. Presumably a clothing item purchased would also have some future use.

I'm not clear on where the rain pants from the back would have come from. The suggestion that the club stock items like this or trousers for unlucky visitors is not reasonable, especially when a simple (just not free) solution is available.

I really sympathize with Garland over the inconvenience caused by the airline, and take no pleasure at all in his experience. I just have a hard time finding fault with the staff and membership at Elie. I feel fortunate to be able to play members' clubs in the UK with so little hassle. Complying with rules I may not necessarily agree with just goes along with it.

Even harder to understand is his low opinion of the golf course. I loved it.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't think the issue is really with the pants, the rules, whether they had loaner rain pants, etc.

Its the absolute inflexibility of the ones in charge having zero allowance in context.  Especially in light of the fact that Garland showed accountability otherwise in contacting the club well in advance to make a reservation, followed up to confirm the reservation (I presume), showed up on time with his HC card and letter all in order, paid the proper green fee without issue, and was appropriately dressed himself. 

Its not like he and his kid were some unknown joes who just showed up on a Saturday morning asking if they could get out...

[Garland Bayley]

John,

I did not say I did not like the course. I said there are plenty of courses I can choose the I would like as well that are more flexible or accommodating, and less expensive. E.g., Elie and Eden are both Doak 5, and Eden is both less expensive and more accommodating. 2nd time to Eden they had messed up our reservation, worked us in between groups, and charged half price.

[Eric Smith]

... The sad part of this saga is the course wasn't enjoyed. Ya can't please all the folks all the time.

Ciao

No one said the course wasn't enjoyed. I just said I would choose to play elsewhere in the future. There are plenty of other Doak 3s out there to choose from for my limited chances to cross the pond to play.

Garland,


I think we may have taken this as your opinion of the course when you say "other Doak 3s"

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,


Eden is a municipal course so jeans would not be an issue. On the other hand TOC is also a municipal owned by the same council yet you would have a fat chance of getting out on the course in jeans I would imagine. Elie is a members club with its rules which as with just about all such clubs are adhered to. As you say there is plenty of choice out there so happy days for all 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

[Jon Wiggett]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Kalen,


I suppose it depends what your criteria is. Pine Valley is most likely a Doak 9 or 10 where as Kilspindie is 5s or less yet if I had to choose to play one of them exclusively for the rest of my life then Kilspindie would win hands down in for me. Greatness lies as much in the fun of playing as anything else.

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Kalen - if you had played Elie you would understand. It is unique.

[Scott Warren]

Garland,


Eden is a municipal course so jeans would not be an issue. On the other hand TOC is also a municipal owned by the same council yet you would have a fat chance of getting out on the course in jeans I would imagine. Elie is a members club with its rules which as with just about all such clubs are adhered to. As you say there is plenty of choice out there so happy days for all 

On the contrary, one of the players in the group behind us at TOC was playing in fashionable stretch denim.

[Ira Fishman]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

I am still not sure how the Doak Scale works because I am still too cheap to buy the Confidential Guide, but I am almost certain that Tom Doak listed Elie as one of the world's most underrated courses on a list he did a couple of years ago for Links Magazine.


Ira

[Sean_A]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

If we can tear ourselves away from numbers out of 10, this passage for me absolutely describes Elie:


“One of the very best courses in its region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.”

[Garland Bayley]

In case you are confused Kalen, the original CG had it at 5. Apparently, the new CG has it at 6.

Doak has lots of links courses at 3. About the only links I have seen that I would rate a 3 is Nairn Dunbar.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Leasowe between Hoylake and Wallasey is a genuine links course.


It is a solid 1.


2 on a good day!


😊

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao

and on the Muldoon Fun Scale its an 11.

[Garland Bayley]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao

and on the Muldoon Fun Scale its an 11.

Am I right in remembering 5 blind drives? Don't you guys get to about the 4th one and go "Really, this seems to be you primary offering! Don't you need a few more periscopes?"

[John Mayhugh]

I'm not trying to throw shade...

But I don't think I've ever seen so many GCA'ers rave over a Doak 5....

Doak gave Elie a 6.  I think Elie is a 7.  In either case, Elie is much better than a 5.

Ciao

Doak's ratings are not the final word on how I feel about a course.  FFS he gave Spyglass Hill a 7, and I would play Elie any day over that one.


Kalen, if you read a bit more about Elie (prior to Garland's rant), you will find it has generally been well thought of on here.

[BHoover]

Michael,

Hilarious stuff, well played. The ties look great thou, just enough flair to make a point without overpowering.  Like a nice entree with a bit of colorful garnish. 

P.S.  Like Sean, I think most dress codes are so arbitrarily silly, it actually detracts overall...but given the world operates this way on so many levels, outwardly appearance vs content of character, tis what it is.

Outwardly appearance?!?! From what I have seen, it seems some people take great pleasure in gaming the dress code. All these people implying what an uncouth, country bumpkin I must be for not knowing the dress code. I knew the dress code, and wore tailored Greg Norman golf shorts with plans to buy the socks. When we arrived,  I took note of the group of hobos on the first tee, and figured they may not give us a problem about my son's pants. I was wrong, as there was no "let's think about what we can do to help with your predicament." Instead the tradition speech was delivered, and off to the pro shop where I figured there might be a problem fitting such a tall lad. No worries, they had a choice of pants in his size. I guess they have lots of opportunities to sell pants.

I think we need to have a look at these “fashionable stretch denim” pants. They must have been fabulous, particularly compared to the outfits worn by the members you insulted as looking like “a group of hobos”. These must not be ordinary jeans.

[John Mayhugh]

Am I right in remembering 5 blind drives? Don't you guys get to about the 4th one and go "Really, this seems to be you primary offering! Don't you need a few more periscopes?"

Blind drives the primary offering? To be honest, until you mentioned it, I never gave any thought to the number of blind drives. Of course, 1 & 10 are both fully blind, but the starter helps with 1 and the thrill of getting to the top of the hill to see the result makes 10 lots of fun. My impression of Elie is more about the terrific greens (with many sloping front to back - a real challenge on links), the mix of hole lengths (you really don't notice the lack of par 5s and only two 3s when playing, such is the variety), the rumpled ground, and the whole "joy to be alive" factor.

[Kalen Braley]

I apologize all...

I wasn't trying to stir the pot, I'm sure its a terrifically fun course, with plenty of quirk which I love.

Was just trying to figure out the hoopla given in the DS 5 and 6 descriptions, Tom posits its middle of the road and not a course worth a special trip where the burden of expectation is "it shouldn't disappoint"

https://golfcoursegurus.com/rankings/doakscale.php

[John Mayhugh]

Kalen

Doak's ratings are just that - Doak's ratings. They aren't a single qualitative measure of how good a course is to everyone else that chooses to play them. It's more useful for me to read his descriptions that his scores. About Elie:
This lovely old links was James Braid's boyhood home. Many holes play on a long slope toward the sea, and many visitors are hapless at figuring out how to play approach shots to greens that run away from them. The par-4 13th and the downhill par-3 34d are the best holes, but the most memorable is the opening tee shot, played blind over a ridge from beside the clubhouse after obtaining clearance from the starter, who consults a submarine periscope to check on the group ahead. With so few severe hazards in your way, you will probably scratch your head why you aren't scoring better, but par-4's are the hardest holes to score on, and Elie has sixteen of them!

Garland is the one that opted to mention Doak scores (if inaccurately). Apparently he and his son played the Castle course the day prior to Elie, even though Doak gave that one a zero. They charge 120 pounds for the Castle, while Elie is 85 (rack rates - no idea what Garland actually paid for either). So for Garland and his son together, the Castle cost 70 pounds more for the round than Elie did. Yet spending 50 or whatever quid on a pair of trousers at Elie embittered him towards the club.

Curious, Garland. Forgetting costs, did you judge the Castle to be a better course than Elie?

[Lloyd_Cole]

I suppose it depends what your criteria is. Pine Valley is most likely a Doak 9 or 10 where as Kilspindie is 5s or less yet if I had to choose to play one of them exclusively for the rest of my life then Kilspindie would win hands down in for me. Greatness lies as much in the fun of playing as anything else.

Seconded.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Curious, Garland. Forgetting costs, did you judge the Castle to be a better course than Elie?

Paid 50 for the Castle Course. We did 5 rounds on the 3 day ticket at 250 means 50 for each course. The Castle Course was the least attractive (to me) course of those we played. Even Tetherow (which I am not to high on) done at the same time with mohawks and eyebrows and wild greens too is better IMO. My son got to see modern design Castle and Craighead, vs old style links (all the rest). He liked Craighead best. Sigh.

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