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mike_malone

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What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« on: August 11, 2015, 10:13:14 AM »
I imagine he did it other places as well.
First he encourages you to use any part of the fairway that you choose on your drive. This is huge because many use bunkers to force play away from parts of the fairway.
Secondly he provides an opening to the green and angles his bunkers rather than flanking them in a parallel way.
Lastly his greens are sloping rather than undulating which uses the whole green   
The net result is that the course rarely dictates your game. You make the choices.
I recently played a course with small greens and flanking bunkers which left me annoyed and then played a second course which used fairway bunkering to push me around the whole course.



« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 10:06:47 PM by mike_malone »
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Ed Brzezowski

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2015, 10:21:02 AM »
True but he kept the slope which allows a variety of drives. A nice draw on nine plays very well. If I recall a little draw works on 15 as well. 18 demands a nice fade to get down around that corner. My club is looking to level a Flynn fairway and it is so wrong.
 
The man worked wonders with the ground he was given and the tools available to him.
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Jon Cavalier

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2015, 10:31:44 AM »
That's really well said, Mike.  I have always loved Rolling Green, and I think that freedom you eloquently describe is a big reason why. And with the recent work they've done on some of the holes there, this freedom has only increased.  Could not agree with you more.


Concord Country Club, which I recently played for the first time in more than a decade, shares some of these elements (as do many other Flynn's).
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mike_malone

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2015, 11:32:58 AM »
These thoughts come after a discussion with Tom Paul yesterday as he worked on behalf of the Pa. Golf Assn. at their Open at Rolling Green and a recent round here with Mike Cirba.
Ed
You are correct about the sloping and undulating fairways which act as the best hazard as Flynn said
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Rory Connaughton

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2015, 12:43:19 PM »
Mike


  Great observations. I completely agree.  It has been a few years since I played RG.  Am I correct in my recollection is that, as with Lancaster, the angle of the green side bunkers tend to track the natural curve the ball will take based on the fairway lie?  For example, at Lancaster, the 10th fairway is canted left to right promoting a left to right shot.  The right green side bunker is perfectly aligned to track the path of that shot if it is not hit far enough.  Likewise, at 15 the right to left slope of the fairway is complimented by a right green side bunker that extends back down towards the fairway. Any draw hit from that draw lie that does not turn enough is going to track the shape and front to back length of that bunker (the fact that the green favors the reverse shot shape makes it even more interesting).


I seem to recall similar features at RG. Can you comment?
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mike_malone

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2015, 01:38:05 PM »
Rory
You may be a little over my head but as I watch the best players in Pa. play today on our 14th hole , a slightly uphill 200 yard par three, I see them miss right into the the right bunkers of the green slanted from left to right.
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MCirba

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2015, 02:47:55 PM »
Why are my ears ringing?   :)

Mayday, I was quite impressed on my recent visit how the recent widening of a number of fairways (i.e. 5, 15) really brought out the link between the greensites and their features as attacked from the various potential areas of approach.   I would also agree with Rory that Flynn often bunkered the "low side" dependent on the prevailing nature of the slopes in the fairway.
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Dan Herrmann

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2015, 03:09:52 PM »
Could a reason for bunkering the low side have been to keep golf balls out of wet areas that'd get muddy with heavy rain?
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Ed Brzezowski

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2015, 03:24:08 PM »
Quote from: mike_malone on August 11, 2015, 01:38:05 PM
Rory
You may be a little over my head but as I watch the best players in Pa. play today on our 14th hole , a slightly uphill 200 yard par three, I see them miss right into the the right bunkers of the green slanted from left to right.

I saw that years ago at the US AM at Merion, I worked the 11th hole and was constantly amazed at the numbers of contestants who drove it into the hazard. You know the distance, you know it's downhill and yet you hit a driver into that mess? Commons ense ceases to exist at times.
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Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 04:49:11 PM »
Mike -  I printed you opening post and it is on my bulletin board.  It's a wonderful way of describing what Flynn was about and why his surviving courses are considered so great today.   Here at Green Valley we have a Flynn course that had McGovern rebuild nearly all of the greens and bunkers in the late 40's and it is now the golf course you describe in the last two sentences.  Hoping someday to get the greens and bunkers back to something you describe and that will fit the routing and ground better.
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Marty Bonnar

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 05:29:12 PM »
Mike,
I thoroughly enjoyed my day at Rolling Green. Between there and Lehigh, I most certainly had a first class introduction to Messrs Flynn and Toomey.
However, I fear I may have overstepped my welcome, and possibly mortally offended the Redanman, when I offered my gem of architectural criticism of the work, which rather shamefully amounted to, "mmm, Flynn, yes. Bunker left, bunker right, bunker left, bunker right".
Not massively insightful certainly, but, accurate in at least some regard, I felt.
Much love,
The now unacceptable face of Scottish golf,
Forever yours,
The FBD.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 05:33:19 PM »
Quote from: Sean Remington (SBR) on August 14, 2015, 04:49:11 PM
Mike -  I printed you opening post and it is on my bulletin board.  It's a wonderful way of describing what Flynn was about and why his surviving courses are considered so great today.   Here at Green Valley we have a Flynn course that had McGovern rebuild nearly all of the greens and bunkers in the late 40's and it is now the golf course you describe in the last two sentences.  Hoping someday to get the greens and bunkers back to something you describe and that will fit the routing and ground better.

Very recent pics of Green Valley (edited recently to contain the most recent in season pics!):

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GV/
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 05:41:30 PM by Joe Bausch »
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Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2015, 10:53:21 AM »
Joe  -- Your pictures always make be me feel good about the golf course.  I'm able to enjoy it through you lens for a moment and not see everything that needs to be fixed.   Thanks - Sean
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mike_malone

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2015, 04:11:10 PM »
Sean,
Good luck with the education.
Martin,
Part of the reason there are bunkers right and left is that they were added in some cases.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2015, 05:34:05 PM »
I was fortunate to play RG twice this season.  Here is a photo album of the course:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/RollingGreen/

Please note that Rolling Green will be hosting the 2016 U.S. Women's Amateur, and the date was recently changed slightly:

http://www.usga.org/articles/2015/07/date-change-for-2016-u-s--women-s-amateur-.html

The last USGA event at Rolling Green was the 1976 U.S. Women's Open, won by Joanne Carner.  I've compiled from microfilm local newspaper coverage of the event:

Delaware County Times:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/1976_USWomensOpen_DelcoTimes/

Evening Bulletin:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/1976_USWomensOpen_EveBull/

Philadelphia Inquirer:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/1976_USWomensOpen_RG/

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 09:17:06 AM by Joe Bausch »
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JNagle

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2015, 08:45:27 AM »
Joe - finally had a chance to look at the RG images.  Great photo tour.  Personally, I really enjoyed the photos
because the expansions completed last Fall are clear to see.  Will be great once they are cut to the same
height of the greens. 


SBR - great example of what we can accomplish at GV on many greens.  As we talked the other day - #'s
1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15 and 16 at RG were expanded along with internal modifications to the slopes,
depressions and high points (done with restoration and drainage in mind).  That is why we believe we can expand
your McGovern greens and tie things in properly.  A welcome challenge.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2015, 10:36:40 AM »
Jim I went to a grounds meeting last month and saw where the leveling of the fairway on ten at Concord was on the future agenda, say it aint so?
 
When I herard it would " make it easier to play" I almost fell off the chair. Please tell me this is off the table. I think getting more pinable area on 2 and 11 is much more important than destroying a neat Flynn fairway.
 
ed
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JNagle

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2015, 11:09:17 AM »
I by no means wish to open a can of worms here, however, the leveling of the 10th fairway has been on the MP since its inception.  In fact we did a similar leveling of the 6th fairway when the bunkers were rebuilt in the early 2000's.  There have been MANY instances where we have implemented similar changes.  The existing slopes coupled with the shorter heights of cut compared to the original standards of years gone by necessitated the changes.  Balls hit left of right of center ending in the opposite rough is not what was intended.  Even expanding fairways in not always the answer.  All that may do is take a ball even more off line and still into the rough.  This does not happen with every plan we do, however there are instances where it is needed.  The 10th at Concord was deemed as needing this solution.  With lush green fairways (not preferred) a ball may stay within the fairway corridor.  With firm conditions it may not.  When the fairway is leveled and the fairway is expanded golfers will have a strategic line to take over the right bunkers and have a preferred angle to approach the green for certain hole locations. 
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2015, 12:17:23 PM »
The worms are not yet disturbed but I always had a question about that master plan. I have heard it was done when folks thought we had a  Ross course. Now that we know it to be a Flynn would that not change the " flavor" of the masterplan? If it was done to enhance a Ross course why wouldn't be re examined when the course is now known as a Flynn design?
 
Obviously I like the look of the fairway ,since to me the great unwashed, it bears similarity to fairways I see at Lancaster cc. It makes you hit a nice little draw up the gut to keep it in the fairway. Unfair?
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Adam Clayman

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2015, 01:00:24 PM »
Mayday, This freedom you've described is wonderful. I never understood when I hear critiques like "you can drive it anywhere".

Now, if freedom truly is the theme at RG, it pretty much tells me that that row of trees on 15 that deprive that freedom, on the drive, were allowed to establish in err. (Am I correct they're not old enough to be original?)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 01:12:49 PM by Adam Clayman »
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JNagle

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2015, 02:12:59 PM »
Ed -


That is a great question.  The only hole that really needs to be rethought is the 17th hole.  The bunker duets were a
direct result of the Ross thinking.  So much of the rest of the layout was based upon the photo and site specific.  What
we mean by that is, in some instances it does not matter who the architect was, one has to focus on what was done on that
particular course.  Concord does not look like any other Flynn courses in the area.  In recent years as we have come to find that
Flynn designed the course we have switched gears as we revisit holes.  Greg, Mike and I have talked in theory about changes
that deviate from the Master Plan where appropriate that are restorative in nature or fit the land and have a "Flynn" tendency. 


The early thoughts about Ross came from the shape and arrangement of the 8th green and bunkers, the green outline (Bell-shaped) of the 6th hole, the reverse light-bulb shape of the 10th green and the look of the 12th green.  For us, at that time, we had not seen a Flynn course that resembled those features.  Yes, we were incorrect.  Would love to know who built the course for Flynn (calling Bausch and Cirba)?  Did McGovern have something to do with it? 



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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Joe Bausch

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2015, 02:19:31 PM »
Quote from: JNagle on August 21, 2015, 02:12:59 PM
Would love to know who built the course for Flynn (calling Bausch and Cirba)?  Did McGovern have something to do with it?


I'll have to check my files.  Not sure I've ever read who built the course.
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2015, 02:41:03 PM »
Ok, I might have an answer to this Concord question.  In the August 17, 1928 edition of the Evening Public Ledger golf writer Ted Hoyt penned this article:



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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2015, 04:45:03 PM »
Nice find Mr. Bausch!
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mike_malone

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Re: What Flynn did at Rolling Green
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2015, 09:57:02 PM »
Adam,
I don't recall if we removed all of the trees early in the hole on the right before you came there or if you are referring to two that were planted incorrectly on the left.
Either way it has been corrected.
The trees that separate 15 and 18 were there before the course was built.
Holes 13 through 18 were carved out of trees.
Like most classic era designers Flynn used trees to create doglegs 






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