[James Boon]

Ian,
I looked at the proposals on display when I was at Dornoch about 3 weeks ago. I'm sure a few others more in touch with the comings and goings of the club can contribute further or better, but the way I read the M&E proposals, the most significant changes COULD be rather than WILL be those to 7, as it was offered up as an alternative beyond the minor changes or adjustments they proposed elsewhere.
For what its worth I wouldn't change the 7th to the extent proposed (or enlarge the clubhouse  [size=78%] ), as I think it gets a great deal of unwarranted criticism. Its one of the better greens on the course, difficult to hit with a long club, a cool false front and run offs on a couple of sides without being massively pushed up above the surrounding land. The changes appear to be an attempt to open up a view from the green down to the sea which would be pretty impressive, but there are already plenty of impressive views on the course.[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Cheers,[/size]
[/size][size=78%]James[/size]

[James Brown]

Sean,

I also do not agree about 7. Yes, tee to green it lacks something which could be easily remedied with a bit of shaping but the green is one of the most subtle challenges I have seen and something the course does not have much of. My only real criticism of Dornoch is the par 3s as a collective 3 of the 4 offer an almost identical challenge with the 10th being the only really poor hole on the course.

Jon

Everyone talks about the length on 7, but the interesting part about this hole is the third shot, which is nearly always something from outside 75 feet because of the contours regardless of where it's into the wind and you are hitting 3-wood or downwind and you are hitting a short iron. To me that seems imminently interesting golf. 

[Bill_McBride]

A post above reminds me that Experience Royal Dornoch is a must buy. Rich Goodale's contributions are well done and the book is beautifully produced.

The same applies to the other two books in the series on TOC and Carnoustie.

Bob

I wonder where it might be possible to buy those books these days....

[Rich Goodale]

A post above reminds me that Experience Royal Dornoch is a must buy. Rich Goodale's contributions are well done and the book is beautifully produced.

The same applies to the other two books in the series on TOC and Carnoustie.

Bob

I wonder where it might be possible to buy those books these days....

Thanks for the hype, Bob and Bill.  All 3 books are still for sale at r.goodale@btopenworld.com, although delivery might be spotty over the next 7 weeks as I'll be in Florida starting this Saturday.  I will bring some books across the pond.  First come first served!

Rich

[Rich Goodale]

James B #1 (Boonie)

I agree with you and James B #2 (whom shall call "It's a Man's World", or IAMW for short).  The current 7th has one of the best green complexes on the course, which means one of the great GC's of the golfing world.  Moving the green to the cliff top is very tempting, and has been bruited for a long time, but like all temptations it has consequences--particularly, interrupting the flow of the course by adding a forced backwards march from the new green to the tee of the great 8th hole.  The proposal should be cryit doon!

As for the new Clubhouse, having viewed the VR video, I rescind my tentative support expressed above.  It would be a wretched abomination which would destroy the charm and essential character of RDGC.

[Niall C]

Wow, what a tough group.
After six rounds, my impression is this a tremendous golf course and really worth getting to know well.

If we are criticizing # 7, #16 and one par three that should be hit with a different club, that is rarefied air.  #7 and #16 would be stand out holes on many courses.  Oh and probably seven greens are non plateau.

Actually, I think there is a nice mix of uphill, downhill and even holes in slightly different directions for a links course.

Simply a wonderful golf course.

  Wm Flynnfan

Bill


I tend to think the top courses get judged while the rest just get enjoyed. As Sean says, a 7 or 8 is hardly knocking the course I wouldn't have thought. What Sean and others including myself have tried to do is look beyond the wonderful setting and give na honest and fair appraisal of the course in itself.


With regards the greens, seven may be non plateau but that leaves an awful lot that are, especially for a links course. However it's not necessarily the number but the nature of some of them eg. the height of them, the steepness of the slope and some instances the way it masks the green surface. All right if you are used to an aerial game I suppose but not the best for links golf IMO.


How did you find the back nine or ten holes ? Did you find them a bit of a slog ?


Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

The more intimately I get to know some courses the more I realize that assigning a number to a course I have only played a handful of times over a large number of years is ever so difficult.  Throw in that I always want to hedge my bets because I haven't seen perhaps 10 of what are meant to be the very best courses in the world. Also throw in that I basically disagree with the concept of a 10 on Doak's Scale as defined and 7 comes out to a very high score.  Even so, I am clearly not as high on Dornoch as most and you pointed out the greens as one reason.  The second is definitely the finish after Foxy.  Regardless of what number is assigned, I think we can all agree Dornoch is a great course.  So long as the green fee doesn't continue to sky rocket, I would like to return. Any of the clubhouse concepts touted would make me less inclined to visit because for one, they are awful, and two, that means green fees rise to pay for it.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

The greens are fantastic you philistines!.... One bounce before and up you go. Beautifully shaped.

Sean - you clearly get out too much. All this golf is getting to your head.

[Ryan Coles]

Sean


You don't feel RD is great value at £120 or £70 twilight? A UK top 10 as you put it?


Burnham is £85.......

[Niall C]

Sean


Agreed, Dornoch is a terrific course and as I said I don't think giving it a 7 or 8 is knocking it irrespective of how hard you are on marking. What I would say is that I'm not sure it would be in my top 5 Scottish (haven't played enough throughout the UK to have a top 10 UK) but that certainly doesn't mean it's not a terrific course.


Niall

[Sean_A]

Sean


You don't feel RD is great value at £120 or £70 twilight? A UK top 10 as you put it?


Burnham is £85.......

Ryan

No, I don't think Dornoch is great value...its good value for the quality...though I think its better value than Burnham. That said, at least Burnham isn't over-run by touristas making a game last over 5 hours

Great value for quality is a place like Cavendish or Kington.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

.... or Silloth.

[Philip Gawith]

Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.


Philip

[Bill_McBride]

Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.


Philip

Me too.   TOC, Muirfield and North Berwick for me. 

[Sean_A]

Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.


Philip

Close...4

North Berwick
Castle Stuart
TOC
Prestwick

Ciao

[Philip Gawith]

I am biased having played 30-50 times as many rounds on Dornoch as any of the others. Even so, i am not sure any of those courses will provide the same sense of first tee anticipation/ all round pleasure that Dornoch provides for me. And no, that is not a pure GCA judgement, not that Dornoch needs to stand back on that score either, despite some hair-shirt views on this thread!


In that regard, i generally agree that 7 not an especially strong hole, though the green makes it harder to score than it looks. As for 16, if we are comparing skyline green on links courses, t is not as good as 10 at Sandwich which is a truly great hole by any reckoning. But I still think it is very good - tough drive, difficult second because distance (and direction) so hard to judge. And it has an all-world setting. Yes it is uphill and often into the wind, but that is hardly a serious criticism.

[James Brown]

The nicest thing about this debate is that Dornoch will be exactly the same place regardless of what anyone thinks. 

[Pete Lavallee]

Phillip, 

I agree completely, Dornock has an indisputable sense of place and 16 of those holes fit like a glove. Screw those other two holes up and your medal score it shot! 

ps.  Why have you retired that Sony camera, the memorable photo threads from you are sorely missed! You're still gca's best photographer in my book.

[Philip Gawith]

You are very kind Pete - lots of competition for that accolade. Main reason is not playing any new courses for a while + losing camera when i had played LACC and Riviera in lovely weather + replacement camera not so great+laziness. Will try to do better!

[Pete Lavallee]

I'm guilty of that too, have taken photos of lots of golf courses but doing a full photo tour is frankly quite tedious! I'll never forget showing my wife your photos of Royal Dornock, we honeymooned there, she said "why don't your photos come out as good as those!" I imeadiately got a Sony on your recommendation.  And it does take great pics. I'll try to do tour soon.

[Sean_A]

I am biased having played 30-50 times as many rounds on Dornoch as any of the others. Even so, i am not sure any of those courses will provide the same sense of first tee anticipation/ all round pleasure that Dornoch provides for me. And no, that is not a pure GCA judgement, not that Dornoch needs to stand back on that score either, despite some hair-shirt views on this thread!

Philip

I know what you mean...only the way you feel about Dorncoch is how I feel about North Berwick and Prestwick. Although, the Doak number doesn't really matter once we are talking such lofty standards.  Great is great, we can split hairs til the sun sets, but that is the bottom line.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Niall i would be interested to hear the five Scots courses you put above Dornoch.


Philip

Philip


In no particular order I would think that Troon, Carnoustie, Moray Old, Nairn, Machrihanish and North Berwick would be in contention (along with Dornoch). I'm also tempted to put in Glasgow Gailes but then you might think me totally biased as it's my home course (as was Moray for a while), and it's certainly better than Western IMO.


These are all courses I've played on a number of occasions as I have Dornoch so feel I can make a reasonable comparison. Other courses that I've only played once but might come into contention with a few more plays would be TOC, Prestwick, and Cruden Bay. Cruden Bay in particular could as there is some great golf there although I remember getting fairly hacked off with the blind stretch from 13-16. Would my view on that change with familiarity ? Who knows.


Then there's other courses that I've played but not for a good while therefore I'm a bit shy in putting them in the mix. Thinking here of the New, the Jubilee, Kings (first non links I've mentioned) and Gullane 1. All of the above are what I'd call big courses and I've kind of left off the "smaller" courses such as the Queens, the Eden, Gullane 3 (and possibly Gullane 2) and Prestwick St Nich's even though they could offer the most fun of the lot.


It should also be said I haven't played Askernish, Machrie or Royal Aberdeen. From what I've heard of RA I'd be surprised if it didn't force it's way into contention.


Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Blimey, Niall.  You must have very different criteria for judging a golf course than mine if some of those are in contention for being better than Dornoch.  In Scotland of those I have played I can only think of TOC, Muirfield and Prestwick.  I like Troon and Carnoustie a lot more than some but they certainly aren't (IMHO) challenging Dornoch.  Machrihanish is very good but not quite great.  The New is good but clearly no Dornoch and the Jubilee simply doesn't fit in the conversation.  Cruden Bay has a run as good as anywhere from 3-8 but has too many blah holes to compete.
 
I have 4 courses which, for me, are the best 4 I have played worldwide and Dornoch is one of them.

[Niall C]

Mark


I probably do. I recall our discussion that time we played Dornoch with DT and Stan and you clearly had a higher regard for the course than I did although I'll say again, I do think it a terrific course.


As for my criteria, it would appear (I didn't notice myself until I thought about what I'd written) that I like old/traditional over modern ie. Kingsbarns, CS, Balmedie, Dundonald and Mach Dunes don't get a look in although all very good. I obviously prefer links although some could argue that Scotland has very few really good courses that aren't links which while having an element of truth is probably a bit harsh. For instance I didn't think to mention Loch Lomond which although I've only played once many years ago I remember thinking was a great course.


I also don't worry too much about setting/views/history and the Brigadoon effect which Dornoch has in spades, when judging  a course. That might account for my rating Carnoustie and Nairn higher than most other folk would. Also flattish courses with little by way of elevational change doesn't bother me (Carnoustie again) and neither am I too fussed about dunes and all that eye candy stuff. 


What I do like is to be challenged in a pleasurable way. Although I'm not a good driver of the ball, I love holes that challenge you off the tee. I love greens that allow different approaches and that also give you room to miss, and that offer varied and interesting shots around the green (is there a duller shot round the greens than a blind chip up to a plateau green ?). All that and good turf.


Not asking for much really 


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

(is there a duller shot round the greens than a blind chip up to a plateau green ?). All that and good turf.


Not asking for much really 


Niall

Can't agree with that.
Although I agree it can be overdone and it could quickly get old if repeated a few times on the same course, it offers much the same pleasure as any blind shot .i.e. delayed joy/frustration. 

I would say that chipping out of ANY length of rough is much duller.  One of the main reasons why I hold just about any links above inland courses.

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