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Ronald Montesano

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Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« on: April 20, 2014, 12:17:44 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bill_McBride

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Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 01:18:44 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?

Here's a slightly OT response from the Deep South.    For years we overseeded our Bermuda greens with poa trivialis every fall so we wouldn't lose our greens to frost in the winter.  The resulting horrible conditions during transition finally got the old guard to agree to my suggestion that we bring in a Mississippi State agronomist, who said no worries, you won't lose them.  So we stopped overseeding.  Luckily we had no problems during January's three day ice storm here!    I sure don't miss that overseeding. 

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 02:12:18 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?

I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 04:13:17 PM »
That's step one, Steve. If you get step two, I'll bow with great and humble deference.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Chris DeToro

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 08:07:04 PM »
I've heard a lot of clubs in eastern MI have had some serious green issues after the thaw...thankfully we've been mostly fine in the western part of the state

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 10:02:49 PM »
That's step one, Steve. If you get step two, I'll bow with great and humble deference.

Step two is cover the green with black sand, which is heated from the sun in an effort to melt the ice without damaging the turf.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 05:42:43 AM »
Cue: bow reflecting great and humble deference.

Where did you learn that trick, Bill? Is it common knowledge among grounds people?

Some area supers have warned golfers that, as the turf thaws deeper, soupy conditions may appear. We expect to go from firm to soft to firm this year, so deep is the frost in the turf.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 08:57:28 AM »
Ron,

Are you sure that wasn't milorganite?
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 10:09:18 AM »
Are you sure that wasn't milorganite?

I had to look up Milorganite (about which I knew nothing) recently. Went to Wikipedia (the journalist's last refuge) and found this, which I thought worthy of sharing:

Milorganite is the trademark of a biosolids fertilizer produced by the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District.[1] The District captures wastewater from the Milwaukee metropolitan area, including local industries. This water is then treated at the Jones Island Water Reclamation Facility in Milwaukee, Wisconsin with microbes to digest nutrients that are found in it. Cleaned water is then returned to Lake Michigan. The recycled product, high nitrogen fertilizer, is sold throughout the world, reduces the need for manufactured nutrients, and after more than 75 years is one of the largest and most continuous examples of such programs.[1][2][3][4]


History[edit]
Milorganite’s history 'began with Milwaukee’s goal to clean up its rivers and Lake Michigan." Rather than land filling sludge or microorganisms, they were used in a pioneering effort to make, distribute and sell fertilizer.[4] "It's production is among the largest recycling programs in the world."[3][5]

The Jones Island Plant was among the first sewage treatment plants in the United States to succeed in using the activated sludge treatment process.[6] "It was the first treatment facility to economically dispose of the recovered sludge by producing an organic fertilizer." In the early 1980s the plant needed extensive reworking, "this does not detract from its historic significance as a pioneering facility in the field of pollution control technology."[5] "The world’s first large scale wastewater treatment plant was constructed on Jones Island, near the shore of Lake Michigan."[7] It had the largest capacity of any plant in the world when constructed.[8] The 1925 plant has been designated as a Historic Civil Engineering Landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers.[6][9]

The name Milorganite is a concatenation of the phrase Milwaukee Organic Nitrogen, and was the result of a 1925 naming contest held in National Fertilizer Magazine. Raising taxes for public health was relatively controversial in the early 1900s. In 1911, reform minded socialists were elected on a platform calling for construction of a wastewater treatment plant to protect against water borne pathogens.[10][11] Experiments showed that heat dried activated sludge pellets "compared favorably with standard organic materials such as dried blood, tankage, fish scap, and cottonseed meal."[12] Sales to golf courses, turf farms and flower growers began in 1926.[13] Milorganite was popularized during the 1930s and 1940s before inorganic urea became available to homeowners after WWII. With the help of researchers in the College of Agriculture at the University of Wisconsin, the use of waste solids (i.e., activated sludge) as a source of fertilizer was first developed in the early 20th century.[2]

It goes on from there, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milorganite.

I wonder if National Fertilizer magazine has a Website...
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 10:11:34 AM »

I wonder if National Fertilizer magazine has a Website...

Yes, it's called "The Sludge Report".  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 10:41:45 AM »
Ron,

Are you sure that wasn't milorganite?

It may have been, Ian. The pro at Flamborough told me about their technique. Is milorganite black in color?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 10:47:11 AM »
Ron;  Yes and its use  in the manner describedis very old school in the mid west

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 02:46:26 PM »
We use green, kiln dried sand here in the winter months for 1. Better sun absorption and 2. aesthetics. While Milorganite in black and will help with melting and warm up, you can use black sand as a much heavier rate and not have the smell. It's not uncommon for courses north of Orlando to use black sand in the winter months on their ultradwafts greens. TPC Sawgrass does.
  I know courses that in the "recovery mode" using green and black sand. With the up and down, late spring weather they've been having, and having to topdress seedlings, it's makes perfect sense.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2014, 02:52:42 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?

I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.

Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada?  I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards. 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 02:53:40 PM »
Cue: bow reflecting great and humble deference.

Where did you learn that trick, Bill? Is it common knowledge among grounds people?

Some area supers have warned golfers that, as the turf thaws deeper, soupy conditions may appear. We expect to go from firm to soft to firm this year, so deep is the frost in the turf.


Ron,

I just read what the Saucon Valley superintendent writes! :)  I had never heard about it until our latest Grounds update, but that is what he did to our Grace Course greens. This is all "turfhead" stuff, way beyond my paygrade. But he had a concern with the smell of some cores that were pulled, as if the grass was dying, not just dormant.

I know that there is controversy in the field about whether or not you should attempt to remove snow and ice from greens. Some feel you should not, and risk doing more damage to the greens with the effort.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 02:59:40 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?

I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.

Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada?  I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards. 

Set the aerifier at 1-2" and it wont hard it, just breaking the surface of the ice so it can be removed. Many Supt did it in in Detroit and Chicago this winter.

Bill-Rooney is a the man. One of the best Supts around.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 03:05:44 PM »
I just returned from Hamilton (Ont, CA) and learned of a number of old-line clubs that suffered green damage and loss this winter. I learned of a unique way to handle iced-over greens and I will share it with you if this thread gains traction. Any other, lost-green stories from the northeast/north country? Ways to prevent/minimize damage/loss?

I'll take a guess: Run a greens aerator over the ice to break/perforate it.

Run an aerator on frozen greens in the winter in Canada?  I would love to see that, and then hear from your mechanic afterwards. 

Set the aerifier at 1-2" and it wont hard it, just breaking the surface of the ice so it can be removed. Many Supt did it in in Detroit and Chicago this winter.

Bill-Rooney is a the man. One of the best Supts around.

If they had 1-2" of ice on standing on their greens, I would think they have more important things to worry about like surface drainage?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 03:08:20 PM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 03:10:14 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 03:15:06 PM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.

I know that it isn't very helpful, short term, for green keepers, but long term, loosing poa isn't a bad thing.  Replace it with something that can handle a little more stress and all are better off, and then stop growing poa.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 03:34:39 PM »
Golfweek has a related article about how ice cover has impacted greens in the north and midwest:

“We have documented 60 to 70 days of ice cover beneath a deep layer of snow on our golf courses across the region” Vavrek said. “Research has shown that injury to Poa annua is likely to occur under these conditions.”

Poa annua and bentgrass cover most putting surfaces in the north-central U.S. The problem is, Poa is a much weaker plant than bentgrass and lacks the ability to harden itself for winter. This inability of Poa to withstand ultra-low cold and ice cover leads to areas of damaged or dead turf on putting surfaces with high populations of Poa.


http://golfweek.com/news/2014/apr/19/golf-course-winter-kill-usga-ice-recovery-seminar/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2014, 05:39:29 AM »
Get to get the ice off to get to the surface drainage. Lots and lots of ice damage to the poa in the Midwest, northeast this winter. Ice melts, freezes, poa kicks the bucket. Remove the ice, minimize the chance to water freezing on the poa=Chance of survival. Not just smaller clubs, but high end clubs with all the resources and money got hit. Overall, a bad winter for poa.

I know that it isn't very helpful, short term, for green keepers, but long term, loosing poa isn't a bad thing.  Replace it with something that can handle a little more stress and all are better off, and then stop growing poa.

Unfortunately, as a Superintendent, this probably wouldn't be a reasonable answer at 90% of the clubs that are facing with this issue. Many clubs can afford to not be open and have grass. Most cannot close in the seasonal climate. Maybe a few of the higher end courses can bit the bullet, most need revenue.
  It's a lot easier to say "manage for bentgrass" when you have a 3/4th population. Unfortunately, many of these courses are the other way around, 3/4th poa. It's much more than "stop growing poa." Many of our National Opens have been played on poa in the last 15 years, so there is a place for it. The most notorious surfaces in the games are poa. This is a once in 30 year issue?
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

David Royer

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Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 08:59:17 AM »
Tony, Does the sanding method protect from dehydration of the crowns?  We experienced the loss of some poa to this issue.  We're in central Ohio. Thanks, Dave

SL_Solow

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Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 09:33:35 AM »
an additional problem is that there are plenty of poa and other similar seeds in the ground which will germinate faster than the bent grass.  thus managing to bent while a wonderful ideal can be quite difficult, or so I am told.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2014, 09:47:10 AM »
Unfortunately Country Club of Scranton is having some serious issues...  See link below.

 http://www.ccscrantongreen.blogspot.com/

Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter's Hand: Lost Greens
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2014, 11:07:58 AM »
Tony, Does the sanding method protect from dehydration of the crowns?  We experienced the loss of some poa to this issue.  We're in central Ohio. Thanks, Dave

David,
  It certainly helps in many cases, but when poa is under ice as long as it was, its an uphill climb. Several courses that do topdress heavy going into winter had turf loss. My dad, in West Michigan topdresses heavy, and came out very clean. It's certainly helps with hydration and protecting the crowns.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

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