[Ben Sims]

On the "best sub-6500 yard" course thread, Mike Young came up with an idea for a competition of the best par 70, sub 6500 yd course, formed as an aggregate of holes from different courses.

I have decided to hold a competition for just this purpose, but with a few tweeks. The winner of the competition will recieve a threesome of golf at my home club, hosted by me, redeemable sometime in the year 2012.  I will not make the judge publicly known (unless they wish to be), but he/she will be a member of this site with the type of knowledge needed to declare a winner.  I will also weigh in on the thread.

The rules:

1)  The course must be of a par between 68-70.  If you're going to use a hole with a different par for men and women or pros and members, the par generally accepted to be used the majority of the time will be used.  No quibbling if the judge says your hole is used more as a par 4 than a par 5, etc.

2)  The course must measure between 5500 and 6500 yards.  Holes used for your course must be measured from the tips, i.e., no using the middle tees to satisfy your yardage requirement.  

3)  The course must have at least one par 3, one par 4, and one par 5.  After that requirment is satisfied, then you are free to use any collection of holes you wish.  Just remember, variety is the spice of life.  Entries with a multitude of certain hole types will be looked upon unfavorably.  

4)  For purposes of organization, please try and keep holes that you choose in their respective position on their golf course.  This will ease in reading posts and judging the entries.  It will also test your knowledge of golf holes more thouroughly.  Exceptions will be granted based on a case-by-case basis and with good cause.  

Please have fun!

[Michael George]

Deleted

[Peter Pallotta]

Ben - here's my stab at it.  I think I'd very much like playing this course; it has a couple of unusual features perhaps, but nothing quirky (as you'll see, I like Par 4s the best*).  The totals are: Par 70, 6305 yards.

No. 1 Garden City (1) - Par 4, 300 yards
No. 2 Old Macdonald (2) - Par 3, 180 yards
No. 3 Bandon Trails (3) - Par 5, 550 yards
No. 4 Plainfield (4) - Par 4, 355 yards
No. 5 Yale (5) - Par 3, 145 yards
No. 6 Pine Valley (6) - Par 4, 390 yards
No. 7 Shinnecock (7) - Par 3, 185 yards
No. 8 Crystal Downs (The Eight) - Par 5, 550 yards
No. 9 Eastward Ho (9) - Par 4, 390 yards

Out: Par 35, 3045 yards

No. 10 Riviera (10) - Par 4, 315 yards
No. 11 Huntington Valley (11) - Par 4, 350 yards
No. 12 Augusta (12) - Par 3, 155 yards
No. 13 Ballyneal (13) - Par 4, 420 yards
No. 14 Hollywood (14) - Par 4, 440 yards
No. 15 Kingsley (15) - Par 4, 455 yards
No. 16 Lancaster (16) - Par 4, 355 yards
No. 17 Oakmont (17) - Par 4, 315 yards
No. 18 Pinehurst (18) - Par 4, 455 yards

In: Par 35, 3260 yards

*But I'm not a die-hard about it. Which is to say, I'd like to reserve the right to wait a few hours and swap out a couple of Par 4s on the back 9 for a par 3 and a Par 5 from someone else's list if this increases my chances of winning  I haven't played any of these holes except for the 8th; all of this is just from reading and pictures, and style(s) I like.

Peter

[Mark Saltzman]

Peter, great submission! I'd love to play that course.

[Bill McKinley]

Wow.  Love the idea.  This is going to take some time to think about, but I'll have my submission later. Hmmm...

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Mark!  

But, does that mean you haven't played it yet?  If not, what are you waiting for? Come on, now: we can't have any slackers or lounge-abouts around here -- or at least, not more than a couple (and I've already horned into one of those spots!)

 

[Mark Saltzman]

Played 9 of 'em. I'm open to invites to any of the others.

[Michael George]

Deleted

[Eric Smith]

Fun exercise, Ben.

Note: I've listed only courses I have played and have selected two holes from each.

1. Dismal River 4 433
2. NGLA 4 330
3. Merion 3 181
4. Porthcawl 3 215
5. Boston 4 317
6. Seminole 4 388
7. Ballyneal 4 352
8. Ballyneal 5 515
9. Harbour Town 4 332

OUT Par 35 3,063

10. Dismal River 3 190
11. Sand Hills 4 408
12. Boston 4 430
13. Porthcawl 4 475
14. Merion 4 408
15. Seminole 5 497
16. NGLA 4 404
17. Sand Hills 3 150
18. Harbour Town 4 452

IN Par 35 3,414

Par 70 6,477

[Jud_T]

All holes I've played:

1.  Pinehurst #2     405 yd. Par 4
2. Kingsley             150 yd. Par 3
3. Rustic Canyon     320 yd. Par 4
4. Lost Dunes         510 yd. Par 5
5. Pinehurst #2      475 yd. Par 4
6. Pac Dunes          320 yd. Par 4
7. Old Mac             365 yd. Par 4
8. Pebble               427 yd. Par 4
9. Kingsley             135 yd. Par 3  (West Tee)
10. Turnberry         457 yd. Par 4
11. Shoreacres       380 yd. Par 4
12. Tamarack         222 yd. Par 3
13. Kingsley           285 yd. Par 4
14. TOC                567 yd. Par 5  
15. Ballyneal           235 yd. Par 3
16. Prestwick         288 yd. Par 4  
17.TOC                 460 yd. par 4
18. TOC                350 yd. par 4

Total = Par 70.  6351 yds.    

[Ben Sims]

The celebrity judge has been contacted and he has accepted the challenge of judging your courses.  Though I would debate his merit as a celebrity, he is well versed in the necessary skills paramount to this competition.  Over a lunch of chicken salad sandwiches and Munchos, he expressed his love of long par 3's and short par 5's.  As an aside, any attempts to guess the identity and/or unduly influence said judge will result in immediate disqualification and assured ridicule. 

To answer a couple questions...

Michael,

No, please include golf holes from the world over.  And as far as the holes themselves, do as you wish.  Variety and flow will matter I would think.  I hear that our judge is a big fan of places like Merion, Wannamoissett, and Foulpointe.   

[Jason Topp]

Give them some Rope - by Jason Topp

  A course that will be challenging and enjoyable for everyone from the beginner to the touring pro.

  A course that gets more difficult as the round goes on - creating pressure to score early but with variety along the way.

   A course that gives the player the freedom to choose different lines of attack but gives the conservative player a chance to compete.

  A trip to some of the most beautiful and interesting destinations on earth.

1.   Victoria 256 - http://www.victoriagolf.com.au/layouts/mp_standard/Template.aspx?page=Course
2.   N. Berwick -  429  http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com/c_scorecard.aspx#h2
3.   Barnbougle Dunes – 370  http://www.barnbougledunes.com.au/the_course/view_the_course/hole_3.html
4.   Woodlands - 276  http://woodlandsgolf.com.au/upload/wysiwyg/holes/hole_4.htm
5.   RMW 177  http://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/guests/course/hole5W.mhtml
6.   Ballybunion 396 http://www.ballybuniongolfclub.ie/oldcourse-tour-06.html  
7.   Sand Hills -285  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/sand-hills/sand-hills-pg-ii/  
8.   Pebble Beach 420 http://www.pebblebeach.com/golf/pebble-beach-golf-links/hole-by-hole-course-tour
9.   Sutton Bay -206 http://www.suttonbay.com/assets/pdfs/SuttonBay2011ScoreCard.pdf

Out – 2815 – par 34

10.    Royal Melboune West  – 312  http://www.royalmelbourne.com.au/guests/course/hole10W.mhtml
11.   TOC – 174  http://www.standrews.org.uk/The-Courses/The-Old-Course.aspx
12.   TOC – 316  http://www.standrews.org.uk/The-Courses/The-Old-Course.aspx
13.   Augusta National – 510  http://www.masters.com/en_US/course/index.html
14.   Royal Dornoch – 445  http://www.royaldornoch.com/ChampionshipCourse
15.   Ballybunion – 216  http://www.ballybuniongolfclub.ie/oldcourse-tour-15.html
16.   Sand Hills 610  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/sand-hills/sand-hills-pg-iii/
17.   TOC – 500  http://www.standrews.org.uk/The-Courses/The-Old-Course.aspx
18.   Kingsley – 410  http://www.kingsleyclub.com/course-tour/18th-hole.html

In  - 3493 – par 36

Total 6308 – par 70

I have played all ofthese holes except 1 and 13.
    

[Mac Plumart]

This was tough.  I think I meet the criteria.  If I was confused on yardages, I checked with Ran's reviews.  FYI.

1   Yeamans Hall   4   425
2   Bandon Trails   3   214
3   NGLA                   4   430
4   Old Musselburgh   4   431
5   Cuscowilla                   4   305
6   Seminole                   4   385
7   Sand Hills                   4   285
8   Ballyneal                   5   515
9   Maidstone                   4   400
10   Shoreacres                   4   455
11   Shinnecock Hills   3   160
12   The Old Course   4   316
13   Muirfield                   3   193
14   North Berwick   4   374
15   Old MacDonald   5   535
16   Bandon Dunes   4   363
17   Longshadow   3   180
18   Inverness                   4   354
                     70   6320


**These are all courses I've played.  This was my way of narrowing done the field.  Too many to chose from otherwise.**
***Only one hole per course for me.  Spreading the love!!**

[Michael George]

I think this course flows fairly smoothly and the holes almost feel like they could have been routed together.  

1.  Machrihanish - 428 yard par 4
2.  Bandon Trails - 215 yard, par 3
3.  Old MacDonald - 375, par 4  
4.  Cruden Bay - 195 yard, par 3
5.  Crystal Downs - 355 yard, par 4
6.  Sunningdale - 510 yard, par 5
7.  Sand Hills - 285 yard, par 4
8.  Pebble Beach - 420 yard, par 4
9.   Royal County Down - 485 yard, par 4
10.  Pine Valley - 145 yard, par 3
11.  Ballybunion - 473 yard, par 4
12.  St. Andrews - 320 yard, par 4
13.  North Berwick - 365 yard, par 4
14.  Friars Head - 535 yard, par 5
15.  Cabot Links - 418 yard, par 4
16.  Cypress Point - 231 yard, par 3
17.  NGLA - 375 yard, par 4
18.  St Andrews - 350 yard, par 4

 
Total yards - 6,465 yards

[Bill McKinley]

1. National  par 4 330
2. Fishers par 3 170
3. Oakmont par 4 430
4. Bethpage Black par 5 522
5. Muirfield Village par 5 527
6. Seminole par 4 385
7. Pebble Beach par 3 107
8. Eastward Ho par 4 350
9. Pine Valley par 4 425

par 36    3246 yards

10. Riviera par 4 315
11. Muirfield par 4 354
12. Augusta National par 3 155
13. Augusta National par 5 510
14. Shinnecock par 4 445
15. North Berwick par 3 192
16. Merion par 4  428
17. Carnoustie par 4 433
18. Old Course par 4 357

par 35  3189

par 71  6435

i've played 9 of the 18

[Howard Riefs]

Ben,

What's the deadline for submissions?

[Sean_A]

See post further down.

Ciao

[Ben Sims]

Two observations thus far.

1)  Save Sean, no one has gotten below 6300 yards.  It doesn't surprise me so much as sadden me that only one entry has been near 6000.

2)  I forgot who first floated the theory that holes in the 375-450 yard range were disproportionately easier for the long hitters, but I agree wholly with that idea.  I would love to see more holes in the less than 350yd and over 450yd categories.

You guys are doing great and I'm having a lot of fun seeing the results.

The judge hasn't made any preferences known thus far, but my presumption is that he's leaning towards Mr. Arble or Mr. Topp. 

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

What's the deadline for submissions?

Howard,

The deadline for submission is Friday Nov 18 at midnight.  After that time, a crack team including the judge and other miscreants will come together in the Winter Colony for golf and sustenance and discuss the winner. 

[Tom_Doak]

Here's the scorecard that works.  Will see if I have time to make up a course for it:

Par 3 holes:  125 - 160 - 180 - 205 - 230 yards

Short 4's:  300 - 320 - 340 - 360 - 380 yards

Long 4"s:  400 - 420 - 440 - 460 - 480 yards

Par 5 holes:  500 - 550 - 600 yards

That adds up to 6,450 yards, par 70.

[Garland Bayley]

Here's the scorecard that works.  Will see if I have time to make up a course for it:

Par 3 holes:  125 - 160 - 180 - 205 - 230 yards

Short 4's:  300 - 320 - 340 - 360 - 380 yards

Long 4"s:  400 - 420 - 440 - 460 - 480 yards

Par 5 holes:  500 - 550 - 600 yards

That adds up to 6,450 yards, par 70.

I like it, but I don't see the need to go out to 600 yards and press the 6500 limit.

[Ben Sims]

Here's the scorecard that works.  Will see if I have time to make up a course for it:

Par 3 holes:  125 - 160 - 180 - 205 - 230 yards

Short 4's:  300 - 320 - 340 - 360 - 380 yards

Long 4"s:  400 - 420 - 440 - 460 - 480 yards

Par 5 holes:  500 - 550 - 600 yards

That adds up to 6,450 yards, par 70.

That's an interesting way to go about it.  It will certainly require a larger mental database of holes to make it work going backwards that way.   A cursory glance at my Pacific Dunes scorecard shows a spread of yardages not very different from the one above.

I think it would be interesting to do a mathematical comparison of course rating vs. yds/shot.  In Pac Dunes case, yds/shot from the tips comes out to about 93.4 yds/shot (6633/71) and it's rating from the tips is 73.  A higher coefficient (73/93.4) would yield a tougher golf course per distance/shot.  I would think that anything over 0.75 would be considered "long."

[Bill McKinley]

My first stab.  Only courses I played.  Only UK courses.  Tried to balance the terrain to make sense in a total routing.  Tried to use a mix of famous holes and some lesser name holes, but still known at least somewhat.  I wanted a short, but tough course, yet with quite a few breather holes where thinking can win the day over brawn. 


1.   Machrihanish 428 yard par 4 (flat)
2.   Dornoch 167 yard par 3 (raised green)
3.   Woking 445 yard par 4 (slightly uphill)
4.   St Enodoc 323 yard par 4 (steeply uphill)
5.   Beau Desert 411 yard par 4 (downhill/uphill)
6.   Sunningdale New 510 yard par 5  (downhill/uphill)
7.   Pennard 351 yard par 4  (slightly downhill)
8.   Troon 123 yard par 3 (slightly downhill)
9.   Beau Desert 260 yard par 4 (slightly uphill)

10.   Cavendish 422 yard par 4 (flat)
11.   TOC 174 yard par 3  (flat)
12.   TOC 316 yard par 4  (flat)
13.   Prestwick 460 yard par 4  (flat)
14.   North Berwick 191 yard par 3  (slightly uphill)
15.   Burnham & Berrow 416 yard par 4 (blind shot/flat)
16.   Seascale 431 yard par 4 (steeply uphill/blind)
17.   Burnham & Berrow Channel 150 yard par 3  (flat)
18.   Kington 285 yard par 4  (steeply downhill)

OUT 3018 yards par 35
IN 2845 yards par 33

TOTAL 5863 par 68

I'm sure u know this but it's #15 at Berwick that's the 191 par 3.  Honest mistake but we need to make sure everything is on the level when we're being judged! 

[Mark Johnson]

dumb question.

Do the holes on the aggregate course need to be the same hole number as they are on their actual course?  (e.g. can you make Pebble #7 the 17th hole on your course?)

[Brett_Morrissy]

Ben,
great comp - well done, I cant believe how quickly the nuts of here have been able to belt out a list - this was only launched today? astounding...is everyone retired or students?

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