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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2008, 10:28:46 PM »
I had a third tier to second tier putt my second day.Hit as good a putt as I could,it barely trickled over the hill,got a tiny piece of the right edge ,trickled,then sped up and ultimately ran just off the green.If I had it to do over I might try to leave the ball in the front fringe of the middle tier.I think there was enough rough to hold it and then a reasonable chip at par.If every green was this severe it would get old.I think this one works very well.There is a penalty for hitting it up there that is more interesting than a pond.

Jim Nugent

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2008, 12:04:06 AM »
I had a third tier to second tier putt my second day.Hit as good a putt as I could,it barely trickled over the hill,got a tiny piece of the right edge ,trickled,then sped up and ultimately ran just off the green.If I had it to do over I might try to leave the ball in the front fringe of the middle tier.I think there was enough rough to hold it and then a reasonable chip at par.

Do you mean you would purposely putt off the green, so you could try to hole your chip shot for par?


mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2008, 12:12:40 AM »
Yes.I would take that flat chip of 15 feet over a 40 foot putt or chip up a three foot incline.

Tom Huckaby

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2008, 10:00:03 AM »
These stories are telling me that perhaps Pasatiempo still hasn't quite gotten there in terms of getting speeds down to where the greens would be perfect.  A third tier to middle tier putt should be stoppable without intentionally hitting it into the fringe - although I agree with Mike that that is the best play as it seems to stand now.

Let's give them time - it's clear the will is there - but Rome was not built in a day.

 ;)

rchesnut

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2008, 05:49:08 PM »
Let me throw in some thoughts about 16 from the perspective of someone who plays it every week....and admittedly, I'm biased.   I think that it's a great hole, though arguably not the best hole on the course.   

First, it's a difficult and unique hole...and there's nothing wrong with having a hole that's very challenging and a little different.  I like courses that have holes like this toward the end of the round, they create some anticipation (and apprehension) that builds during the round, ie, I've got a good round going, but anything can happen on 16.  You wouldn't want more than one hole like this on a course, but one hole like this is pretty cool.

Second, though it's a very difficult green, remember that it's a short hole, under 385, with good drives that bounce downhill.  It's not unusual for a good golfer to hit 3 wood off the tee and still have a wedge or short iron in.  And unlike the "typical" short par 4, the green on 16 is huge.  Given these facts, it's not unreasonable to challenge the good golfer with a tough green, and to expect the good golfer to put the ball not just on the green, but in the right place on the green.  If you hit the approach to the proper tier, you're rewarded here with a relatively flat putt -- I see a number of birdies on this hole. 

Putting on this hole depends a lot on where the pin  is located.  The easiest position is middle center/right.  A putt from the lower tier to this pin is actually easy...you simply hit it hard, and you have a giant backboard to bring your putt back to the hole.    True, a putt from the upper tier to the middle tier is brutal, but anyone that hits a ball that far long and above the hole deserves what they get....rather than a hazard or awful rough, they get an almost impossible putt...but just because it's a putt doesn't make the hole silly, it makes it different (and in my view brilliant)...MacKenzie has created a green that uses sections of a green as a hazard, an effective "moving" hazard depending on the pin position.   

The most common pin position is the back tier.  It's a very long section of green with lots of pin positions, and as a tier it's almost as large as some greens you'll find on short par 4s on other courses.  It's fairly flat, and there's room to miss right and a bit long.  If you miss it short, it will roll all the way down, leaving a nasty uphill putt.  But if you think about it, missing the green short on a short par 4 often means death by nasty bunker or hazard, where getting up and down is nearly impossible....so here, the punishment is arguably less severe...severe punishment by difficult putt, where it's difficult to get "up and down."  It's not necessarily unfair (depending on green speed). 

In addition to the above two tiers, there's a middle left pin position that's nasty, really almost a fourth tier between the top and middle tiers, that adds another dimension.  It's difficult to keep an approach shot on this small shelf, which forces golfers choosing to play conservative to either aim for the top shelf,  or the middle center/right shelf, and trying to two putt. 
Either way, it's tough.  I agree, for a 25 handicapper, it could be rough...but I played the course recently with a 30 handicapper who's new to the game, he shot 124, bogeyed 16 with a back pin, and had a great time. 

And Tom H. is right...green speed is a big issue, and it's a huge factor for playability on 16.  It's certainly a better hole, more playable with more pin positions, and more fair, with  green speeds at 9 or 9.5.  I think the club is doing the right thing by slowing the greens up and focusing on smooth over fast....but remember that Pasatiempo is an unusual club that caters to both a private membership and the public, which forces interesting choices about how to set up the course.

Rob

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2008, 07:16:24 PM »
Pasa is a really special course in my opinion. I think that perhaps Patrick is laying too much blame at the feet of the caddy & the green, and not accepting that perhaps pilot error was the main culprit.

Pasatiempo is a "short" layout by modern standards, and a lot of its defence is based on tough green complexes & positional play off the tee. As Rob said, 16 is routinely a 3 wood - wedge hole for the "good golfer" and you much take this into account when assessing the severity of the green. TH also mentions the fact that to miss on the upper left tier is the equivalent of being 25 + yards out, on a comparable par 4 this could be a bunker / water hazard where you have <i>zero</i> chance of getting down in 2.

Its a great par 4 - really enjoyable, memorable and testing. Much like the rest of the course IMHO.

johnk

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2008, 08:54:14 PM »
I may be hallucinating, but I think I played PasaT with Huckaby once, and the pin was on the middle tier, and he hit it there, about 18 ft to the right.  Did not make putt for birdie.

Does anyone else recall that?

Jim Nugent

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2008, 11:48:46 PM »
Rob, great post.  Really gives me a perspective on this hole. 

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2008, 01:20:48 AM »
Pasa is a really special course in my opinion. I think that perhaps Patrick is laying too much blame at the feet of the caddy & the green, and not accepting that perhaps pilot error was the main culprit.

Not sure this matters too much but the only thing that the caddy didn't communicate to my dad was that the putt uphill could be played off the backboard of the middle tier. Either way pilot or "co-pilot" error did not take away from the great experience of the course. As most of my posts show (at least I hope they do) I loved the challenge and at points failing some of those challenges. My dad was smiling after his 6-putt. Again not sure this matters in terms of the architecture but I guess Patrick G. brought it up for a reason.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Tom Huckaby

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2008, 10:14:20 AM »
I may be hallucinating, but I think I played PasaT with Huckaby once, and the pin was on the middle tier, and he hit it there, about 18 ft to the right.  Did not make putt for birdie.

Does anyone else recall that?

JK - I surely do remember that.  I thought I made the putt though!  I know I did birdie this hole ONCE, and it was middle tier.

And oh yes this was back in the less enlightened days.  But in those days, they also certainly did give sadistic pins from time to time.  In fact the entire clarity on the absurdity of the greens hit me one day after playing a back pin on the old #11.  Putt up, miss, gravity rolls it back to your feet... lather, rinse, repeat, as many times as you can take it.

And thanks, Rob - that is indeed a great post which sums things up perfectly.  16 is a great golf hole for sure... it just works best with the green no more than 9.5.

TH


Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2008, 12:39:08 PM »

...  True, a putt from the upper tier to the middle tier is brutal, but anyone that hits a ball that far long and above the hole deserves what they get....rather than a hazard or awful rough, they get an almost impossible putt...but just because it's a putt doesn't make the hole silly, it makes it different (and in my view brilliant)...MacKenzie has created a green that uses sections of a green as a hazard, an effective "moving" hazard depending on the pin position ...


I think this is a great point ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2008, 12:43:03 PM »
Mike - I fully agree - see reply 33.

 ;)

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2015, 06:24:18 PM »
Bump
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 16th at Pasatiempo
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2015, 02:52:11 PM »

Let me throw in some thoughts about 16 from the perspective of someone who plays it every week....and admittedly, I'm biased. 

Rob, I don't think I have a bias when it comes to Pasatiempo and # 16, but, I share your sentiments on the golf course.
I think it's simply brilliant.
 

I think that it's a great hole, though arguably not the best hole on the course. 

MacKenzie called it his best par 4.
That's a pretty strong endorsement.
 

First, it's a difficult and unique hole...and there's nothing wrong with having a hole that's very challenging and a little different.  I like courses that have holes like this toward the end of the round, they create some anticipation (and apprehension) that builds during the round, ie, I've got a good round going, but anything can happen on 16.  You wouldn't want more than one hole like this on a course, but one hole like this is pretty cool.

It's beyond cool, it's both intriquing and challenging.
From the blind tee shot to the startling view of the green from the DZ to standing on the putting surface and being in awe of what was created.


Second, though it's a very difficult green, remember that it's a short hole, under 385, with good drives that bounce downhill.  It's not unusual for a good golfer to hit 3 wood off the tee and still have a wedge or short iron in.  And unlike the "typical" short par 4, the green on 16 is huge.  Given these facts, it's not unreasonable to challenge the good golfer with a tough green, and to expect the good golfer to put the ball not just on the green, but in the right place on the green.  If you hit the approach to the proper tier, you're rewarded here with a relatively flat putt -- I see a number of birdies on this hole. 

Rob, everything you say is dead on.
However, you have to understand, when golfers can't rise to meet certain architectural challenges, they complain that they're unfair.
You have to ask yourself, which is the harder hole, # 10, # 11 or # 16 ?
I think that # 16 is far, far easier than # 10 or # 11.

# 16 requires a good tee shot and a "precise" approach.
Fail with "precision" and you're penalized, as you should be, especially given the enormity of that green.


Putting on this hole depends a lot on where the pin  is located.  The easiest position is middle center/right.  A putt from the lower tier to this pin is actually easy...you simply hit it hard, and you have a giant backboard to bring your putt back to the hole.    True, a putt from the upper tier to the middle tier is brutal, but anyone that hits a ball that far long and above the hole deserves what they get....rather than a hazard or awful rough, they get an almost impossible putt...but just because it's a putt doesn't make the hole silly, it makes it different (and in my view brilliant)...MacKenzie has created a green that uses sections of a green as a hazard, an effective "moving" hazard depending on the pin position. 

Agree
 

The most common pin position is the back tier.  It's a very long section of green with lots of pin positions, and as a tier it's almost as large as some greens you'll find on short par 4s on other courses.  It's fairly flat, and there's room to miss right and a bit long.  If you miss it short, it will roll all the way down, leaving a nasty uphill putt.  But if you think about it, missing the green short on a short par 4 often means death by nasty bunker or hazard, where getting up and down is nearly impossible....so here, the punishment is arguably less severe...severe punishment by difficult putt, where it's difficult to get "up and down."  It's not necessarily unfair (depending on green speed). 

Green


In addition to the above two tiers, there's a middle left pin position that's nasty, really almost a fourth tier between the top and middle tiers, that adds another dimension.  It's difficult to keep an approach shot on this small shelf, which forces golfers choosing to play conservative to either aim for the top shelf,  or the middle center/right shelf, and trying to two putt. 
Either way, it's tough.  I agree, for a 25 handicapper, it could be rough...but I played the course recently with a 30 handicapper who's new to the game, he shot 124, bogeyed 16 with a back pin, and had a great time. 

And Tom H. is right...green speed is a big issue, and it's a huge factor for playability on 16.  It's certainly a better hole, more playable with more pin positions, and more fair, with  green speeds at 9 or 9.5.  I think the club is doing the right thing by slowing the greens up and focusing on smooth over fast....but remember that Pasatiempo is an unusual club that caters to both a private membership and the public, which forces interesting choices about how to set up the course.

Rob, I could play Pasatiempo every day for the rest of my life, to the exclusion of all other courses and be content.

It's simply spectacular.

And, given the size of those greens, you could probably play for a year and never have the same hole location.
The variety in hole locations is almost like no other course, it's simply marvelous.

I'm jealous, it's cold and there's snow on the ground in NJ and you get the benefit of playing Pasatiempo.

Enjoy and say "hello" to Ken Woods and John Zetterquist for me.



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