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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2011, 12:10:29 PM »
People don't even need to be a rater to access these courses.  They need to be a rater have the power.  You can only exercise your power by moving the rankings.

This partially explains why so many raters end up unemployed.  They bring their new power into the workplace and flash it in front of their superiors.  It is really annoying.  The course soon becomes the only place they can wield their sword.  If you can't promote your own fiefdom what can you promote.  Yes, the courses that bow down go up.

This has nothing to do with money.

John,

Shut up.  Have you had an employee that was a rater?  My guess is no.  You live in a fantasy world where everything goes according to your imagination.

Jud,

If you think Robert Parker isn't greased then you are as crazy as someone who thinks they can beat me in a 3 club match at Kingsley.  Oh wait....
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2011, 12:11:41 PM »
Jud:

The reason why moderately priced places don't get rated is that so few are THAT good to be on a top 100 listing.

The other happens to deal with the fact that too many raters PRESUME that the private high ticket place or the equivalent resort is really designed very well. Often times the big ticket places are simply that big ticket -- all hat and little cattle.

What I try to do when visiting -- is ask the key locals where they fancy playing. Amazingly, more often than not, you cut through all the BS baloney.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2011, 12:19:34 PM »
JC,

As far as I know Parker is only greased by wealthy wine fan dinners and charity tastings, not by vineyards, winemakers or wine merchants.   "Taking his cue from consumer advocate Ralph Nader, Parker wanted to write about wine without the conflicts of interest that might taint the opinions of other critics who also make a living selling wine." 

p.s. I was going to break out a few special bottles from the cellar for the occasion, but I guess the staff and I will have to quaff it whilst you drink East Lansing's finest... ;)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

David Camponi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2011, 12:26:41 PM »
The exercise in rating golf courses in numerical order is an exercise in stupidity; some are better than others and others are better than that.  To say this is #1 and this is #4 is __________ (pick your own adjective)


Matt_Ward

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2011, 12:31:48 PM »
David:

I agree.

I prefer to place courses in groups -- either five or ten.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2011, 12:39:57 PM »
JC,

As far as I know Parker is only greased by wealthy wine fan dinners and charity tastings, not by vineyards, winemakers or wine merchants.   "Taking his cue from consumer advocate Ralph Nader, Parker wanted to write about wine without the conflicts of interest that might taint the opinions of other critics who also make a living selling wine." 

p.s. I was going to break out a few special bottles from the cellar for the occasion, but I guess the staff and I will have to quaff it whilst you drink East Lansing's finest... ;)

Do you think he pays cash for all his Pegau? 

All the critics get the wine they critique for free.  That's why all those win blogs popped up a few years ago; vineyards were sending juice in exchange for publicity.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2011, 12:40:45 PM »
If the lists can generate this much stupid commentary they have huge entertainment value.   David, to place enough credence to them, that elicits this much vitriol from you, someone not affiliated, who is being _____ ? (Insert)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2011, 12:44:39 PM »
Jud:

The reason why moderately priced places don't get rated is that so few are THAT good to be on a top 100 listing.

...

UM! Didn't you just put Wine Valley and Black Mesa on your top 100 listing?

There are lots and lots of moderately priced places that have to be better than Sahalee.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2011, 12:56:53 PM »
Garland, list three weaknesses of Sahalee.

I'll spot you the first: encroaching trees on a few holes.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2011, 01:04:15 PM »


All the critics get the wine they critique for free.  That's why all those win blogs popped up a few years ago; vineyards were sending juice in exchange for publicity.
[/quote]

At least he does blind group tastings, something impossible in the world of GCA criticism...He's also not afraid to give Petrus or Screaming Eagle a crap rating if it's really an off vintage.  Goes to Terry's groupthink point.  Bring on "Son of The Confidential Guide".
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 01:11:44 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2011, 01:08:55 PM »
One question I have yet to see answered is: why the playing field where every rater is comped by every course is LESS level than the one where every rater pays at every course.  

In fact, the latter is likely to yield more disparity in result because the rater will have notions of value affecting their rating.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2011, 01:09:15 PM »
Lou, I do like facts. It is fairly well known from many studies that human beings are compelled to return favors when they are given one. Human minds are very well in tune with building harmonious society, and this is just one of those traits that we have evolved over millenia.

I am sure Mr. Rich did not ask for any pro-quid-pro, but he didn't have to. He knew that by bestowing such attention and generosity, those favors would come back to him. He may not even be conscientiously doing it, it may be just something he learned over many years of business dealings. Marketers are well aware of this phenomena, which is why you see those free samples at Costco and loss leader pricing for special items.

Do you believe Rich Harvest is a top 50 course?

And you should know that I have a very strong love/hate relationship with that hole :) I am THRILLED that I actually parred that hole for once. But I came right back with an X, which is more of my norm.

Rich,

In a prior life, I was one of the undergraduates who did much of the grunt work for highly-regarded PhDs in the social psych dept of a major research institution.  Next to working for a large bible church and being paid for talking about Jesus all day long, I can't think of a more satisfying job than concocting research findings so that other smart people can source them and feel good about what they know.  But perhaps I am a just a contrarian who believes that human beings are way too complicated to be pigeon-holed so easily.

As a business planner early in my career with a world-class consumer products company, I also came to realize very quickly that much of what I learned in B-school was only marginally useful.  To understand the hugely multi-variate motivations driving human behavior, one had to go well beyond linear programming, multiple regression analysis, Nielsen summaries, or coupon redemption rates.  Unfortunately, these complicated factors are seldom within easy reach of those who synthesize the data for the popular press or even the academic journals.  I did get a kick once, awhile ago, when one of my old research profs wrote to the Wall Street Journal noting that recognition studies (of television commercials) did not inform on actual "pull off the shelves" (buying) behavior- a kind of an "A Ha" moment, no doubt, in his otherwise Pavlovian world-view.  But I digress (and I do need to get started on my favorite thing- my income tax return- prior to leaving for some more golf and R & R next week).

Jerry Rich allowing me to play his course for "free" had no more of an impact on my estimation of Rich Harvest than paying $180 each to play 36 holes at Pac Dunes and Old Mac did a couple of weeks ago.  In fact, when considering flights, room, food, and time, the social psychology literature might suggest the opposite- we tend to esteem the things we pay more for higher than those free or of lower cost (a reason we tend to appreciate things we earn or work hard for as opposed to gifts, common goods, or easy accomplishments).  Not being a national rater currently, I'd have to go back an look at my files, but I don't know if I had Rich Harvest in my top 50.  Top 100 that I've played?   For sure.

Re: Pac Dunes #16, I made an easy par on my last round there.  I still have not parred 17 (bogie out of the front bunker), and barely finished on 18 with an 8, again!  That is a most difficult finish for a golf course I never considered particularly hard.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 01:12:21 PM by Lou_Duran »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2011, 01:13:27 PM »
Garland, list three weaknesses of Sahalee.

I'll spot you the first: encroaching trees on a few holes.

Mike

Bogey. Is your definition of few 18? Tom Doak called it 18 holes of tree gates.
How about being sited in a housing project in a wheel with spokes configuration and 14 to 15 holes having OB left.
How about the most boring greens in the state according to Rich.
How about a boring back and forth routing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Ward

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2011, 01:16:13 PM »
Garland:

Fix your eyeglasses -- I mentioned two (2) courses that I would have in my personal top 100. The major mags -- GD doesn't have either in its overall top 100 -- nor does Golf Mag. Got it straight now.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2011, 01:18:01 PM »
Lou,

Great point, as always, regarding value and price paid.

I think the main problem Richard is having is that, at most of these places, you can't wear a towel on your belt.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2011, 01:22:34 PM »
Is it "Wine Valley" or "Whine Valley"?

Just asking.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2011, 01:23:07 PM »
Garland:

Fix your eyeglasses -- I mentioned two (2) courses that I would have in my personal top 100. The major mags -- GD doesn't have either in its overall top 100 -- nor does Golf Mag. Got it straight now.

Are you daft? You say you have 2 moderately priced courses in your top 100. You claim they should be in GD top 100, but yet you say moderately priced courses aren't good enough to make top 100.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2011, 01:33:50 PM »
Bogey. Is your definition of few 18? Tom Doak called it 18 holes of tree gates.  He's wrong.  Regardless, I asked for your opinion.
How about being sited in a housing project in a wheel with spokes configuration and 14 to 15 holes having OB left.   I don't recall noticing any OB - but I guess you're not a big fan of the OB right (either actual or de facto) on The Old Course either.
How about the most boring greens in the state according to Rich.   The greens are subtle and sneaky good - perhaps the course's best defense. Regardless, I asked your opinion. .  
How about a boring back and forth routing. Please disregard my previous comments  - I must have played an entirely different golf course.

FWIW, I enjoyed the golf course but would readily agree it is not worthy of being ranked in anybody's top 100 list.   I'd give it a 5.5 on anybody's scale.

Mike
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 01:43:46 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Andy Troeger

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2011, 01:39:57 PM »
Mike,
Garland is offering his comments without having seen the course--other than Google Earth. As you said, if you actually play the course you don't even notice the OB.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2011, 01:40:53 PM »
Interesting, Lou -- while I have no training in or experience with marketing or business planning, I have always assumed that the positive relationship between brand recognition and off the shelf sales was simply a lie created and perpetuated by ad agency executives and the television industry in order to have companies sign off on and pay for the most expensive commercials possible, and to air them as frequently as possible; and that there were enough marketing executives in those companies foolish enough to pay for such extravanganze simply so that they could play film producer for a day and hang out with the startlets while making 'creative' decisions in exotic locations -- enough, that is, to keep the charade going and the money flowing for decades now. But for all that, I didn't realize and it wouldn't have occurred to me that old university professors had bought that nonsense as well.  (Of course, on the other hand, there wouldn't be a PGA Tour if it wasn't for foolish marketing executives fostering the lie and spending too much of their companies' money just so they can hang out at Riviera or Doral drinking free martinis with Player X and the Hooter Girls.)  

Anyway - I don't know if this in any way relates to the main topic at hand....just typing away here

Peter

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2011, 01:48:03 PM »

He's wrong.  Regardless, I asked for your opinion.
I don't recall noticing any OB - but I guess you're not a big fan of the OB right on The Old Course either.
The greens are subtle and sneaky good - perhaps the course's best defense. Regardless, I asked your opinion. .  
Please disregard my previous comments  - I must have played an entirely different golf course.

FWIW, I enjoyed the golf course but would readily agree it is not worthy of being ranked in anybody's top 100 list.   I'd give it a 5.5 on anybody's scale.

Mike

So Bogey, you don't ascribe to the theory that practicing golf architects know better than you. Not even ones that have constructed holes with tree gates and featured them in their book?
Get serious about TOC vs Sahalee. Are you suggesting that they should cut down the trees at Sahalee between parallel holes to more approximate the playable width at TOC. If they did, you would realize that you constantly were turning around and playing back to where you came from.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Ward

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2011, 01:50:44 PM »
Garland:

First, it was a need to fix your eyes -- now your ears must be going to.

I said that in general moderately priced public layouts cannot stand up when held against deeper priced layouts from the public and private side of things. There are a very few of note. Black Mesa is one such course. So is Wine Valley. So is Four Mile Ranch.

Got it now.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2011, 01:56:19 PM »
Garland:

First, it was a need to fix your eyes -- now your ears must be going to.

I said that in general moderately priced public layouts cannot stand up when held against deeper priced layouts from the public and private side of things. There are a very few of note. Black Mesa is one such course. So is Wine Valley. So is Four Mile Ranch.

Got it now.



Well we certainly disagree on the quantity. Too many raters value Veblen goods too highly.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2011, 02:12:19 PM »
Garland, Tom Doak likely forgot more architecture this morning than I know.  That said, I'm not the dumb-ass I often portray myself to be ;)

The statement you attribute to him is obviously hyperbole.  If you place greater weight in his hyperbole than in my experience and opinion - I can't really blame you.

As for your comment about The Old Course v. Sahalee I have no response to that since the Grilled Cheeserie truck just pulled up outside my office.

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt_Ward

Re: The Rater Game?
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2011, 02:17:39 PM »
Garland:

Try to realize this -- the top 100 has only 100 spots.

No doubt the moderately priced publics have come a long way in the last 25 years but few can really provide a tour de force design and still provide a cost that is affordable to most. Tough when other courses / clubs have nearly unlimited resources at their disposal.

One other thing -- raters as a rule need to expand their portfolio to include such courses -- simply cherry-picking off the same top tier private / resort / ccfad trypes only ensures that the same type of courses are returned year after year.

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