[Tim_Weiman]

Many are probably aware of the famous description of Cypress Point as "the best seventeen hole course in the world".

This stems from criticism of #18.

The World Atlas of Golf described the situation as follows:

"If there is weak hole at Cypress Point, it is the 18th, which ordinarily should be the strongest hole on any golf course.  It is a par-four dog leg going right and uphill to a green where it is hard to know where the flagstick is, leaving grave doubts as to what kind of putt must be faced...."

Based on my limited experience at Cypress Point, I've always felt criticism of this hole was overdone, largely because the hole seems so "mood appropriate".

By that I mean, the golfer has just been through some of the most dramatic holes in golf and to end on another dramatic note just doesn't seem right.  Instead, I think Mackenzie sensed that an emotional cool down was appropriate.

Does any share this feeling?  Conversely, can anyone detail something different they think Mackenzie should have done?

[Gene Greco]

Tim:

    Yes, I feel exactly as you do.

How much higher could MacKenzie (and Raynor) get the golfer after 15-17? Why would he want to? I say 15-17 is the ultimate peak in all the golfing world and 18 serves to gently bring one back to reality.

Furthermore, I say the entire course plays as if it were a sexual interlude with 18 being the cigarette/hug after a golfing orgasm.

[Brad Miller]

calling Geoff Shakelford, but I don't believe the Dr. intended for one to "fall asleep" on the 18th! (Remember the plans for the tee and bridge)

[Chris Kane]

Gene,

A JakaB style analogy, but it illustrates your point perfectly!

[John_McMillan]

I think that another factor in Mackenzie's design of the 18'th is the location of the clubhouse.  

It wasn't until I read Geoff's book on Cypress that I understood the view, but on page 52 is a photograph from the balcony overlooking the the 16'th green.  I did not realize what a view the clubhouse has of that hole.  

It's not possible to get into Mackenzie's mind, but one can speculate that once you fix the 16'th hole, and the clubhouse location, playing back up the hill for the 18'th (instead of another hole along the ocean), is the only way to complete the routing.

I agree that the criticism of the 18'th hole is overdone.

[ChipOat]

I'm afraid I can't accept anti-climactic finishing holes as "appropriate" regardless of the preceeding spectacular experience.  I sure wouldn't change Cypress one iota to "fix" the problem, but I'd rather have 1 more great hole than a "letdown" 18th.

Inverness is another fine course with an 18th hole that would be fine somewhere else except as the finisher.  Bethpage Black is another one with the same affliction, I think.  Going down a notch, Somerset Hills in NJ (Tillinghast) has a pretty bland 18th on an otherwise neat layout.  Prestwick and Machrihanish also come to mind.  Finally, I'm afraid I have to include TOC in the same category - Valley of Sin or not.

Any other first-class "17 hole" tracks to suggest as "2nd best"?  TOC, maybe?

[Matt_Ward]

Another layout that comes to mind, also in NJ, besides Somerset Hills, is Plainfield. After you play the 17th hole you feel like there must be one hole big time hole before you conclude the day. Nada!

The 18th is a gentle finishing hole that lacks the zest / punch / wow feeling you would expect from a course that provides so much.

As I'm sure many on GCA probably know the existing 18th was really the original 16th hole as two previous holes were abandoned with the building of today's practica area. The holes lost were added in the tunnel area and the expansion of the 12th into a superb par-5 that is one of the best of it's kind in America.

I've always wondered whether the existing 18th at Plainfield has held back the course in the minds of many people when it's overall standing is taken into account.

[Chris Kane]

18 at TOC is perfect.  Something a bit quirky is the perfect way to end it.  Who said a final hole had to be overly difficult?

[Paul Turner]

Yes, but didn't Mackenzie want the 18th tee on that rocky island?

[ChipOat]

Dear Chris Kane,

I did.

Seriously - I make a lot of noise about strategic holes on this site, but a really good finishing hole cries out for TOUGH, to me.  If the ground allows for heroic shots, I'll take that over subtle on a finisher, any day.

Like Cypress, Inverness and Bethpage, I think the 18th at TOC would be a fine hole someplace else on the course.

[Chris Kane]

Chipoat,

Well we'll have to agree to disagree.

[ChipOat]

I knew I'd get a rise on my TOC nomination but I'll stick by it as "2nd best".  Any other ideas?

Should we start a new thread on "what should a finishing hole be"?  Can't believe that hasn't been done at least once, already.

Stanwich (CT) - site of next year's Mid-Am is another well known course with an anti-climactic finish.

[Bob_Huntley]

The eighteenth hole at CP could be saved by the removal of the trees that make an obstacle course off the tee. Some pruning of the trees on the right side of the driver  landing areaa would also help.

When next you play the course, have a look at the area to the left and short of the green and you will see a very steep depression. I heard it mooted by one old time member of the club that a green placed above it and below the patio would have made a perfect site for the finishing hole

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I read about that bridge out to the island in Doak's book(?)

Is the island still there, it would seem like it would be easier now than 80 years ago.  Has it been considered?

I have not played to comment on it.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben Dewar:

Have you heard of the California Coastal Commission?


Chipoat:

While we obviously don't agree on this topic, I appreciate you bringing up the subject of TOC.  I'm embarrassed to admit I never thought about the comparison to CP, but I think the same argument applies.  I'd hate the Road Hole to be the finish.  TOC, while quite different than CP, is another place I appreciate the emotional cool down.

[Tim_Weiman]

Chipoat:

I don't recall a thread on what makes sense for a finishing hole.  Go ahead and start one.

Bob Huntley:

I can't remember the distances well enough.

If that tee and bridge had ever been built, wouldn't removing some trees on the right side have been a necessity circa 1930?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tim,
I am in Toronto and obviously was not aware.  Am now.
Ben

[ChipOat]

Tim Weiman

I'll take my emotional cooldown with my liquid cooldown - at the bar.

This is a good thread - all we can get is 2 lousy nominations?  There's no other great 17 hole golf course worth mentioning??

Even golf nuts go out on Saturday night, I guess.

[ed_getka]

I would nominate Pasatiempo in this category. #17 is a straightaway par 4 that really poses no problems or strategic interest. It does have an amazing sneakingly contoured green that has breaks that you would swear are not possible. The green however is not enough to lift this hole to the level of the rest of the course.

Another course I played recently that I really liked was Barona Creek, but I felt #18 was an aberration that didn't really go with the rest of the course. I didn't finish well on the hole so I can't speak to the hole from that perspective. However, it is 460 yds  par 4 into the wind. There is a lake to the left and bunkering front right with a very narrow neck into the green, especially considering the length of the approach shot into the wind. The strange thing was the fairway wrapped around the bunker and curled down to the green, but there isn't enough slope there to allow the ball to feed onto the green unless you hit a hook in there so I'm not sure what the intent was there. Gib and some others have played there (outside of San Diego) and probably have much more insight into that hole than I do.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben:

Sorry if the tone of my point about CCC was a little abrupt.  I believe the CCC had a big influence on the Pelican Hill project and the resulting 28 years of permitting.  Thus, I can't imagine the CCC ever letting something done in Carmel.  Even more, I couldn't imagine the membership at CP having any interest in such an undertaking.

Chipoat:

Thanks to Ed Getka we now have three, though Pasatiempo never really provided the reflective moments that CP and TOC do when playing #18.

Now as for the 19th hole, maybe our thinking isn't that far apart.  My favorite place in the world (Ballybunion) has an eigtheen hole that is hardly the high point of the round, but it always puts me in that reflective, emotional cool down mood while also providing a clear view of the 19th hole.

Nowhere else do I so much enjoy a beer (or several beers) after playing.

[Stan Dodd]

Echo Ed on Pasatiempo, #17 is bland and #18 is weak as a finishing hole.  #17 is big let down after #16.
I nominate Machrihanish.  #18 is just a filler to get to #19 or back to #1 for another go round.

[Tom MacWod]

The 18th at Cypress Point may suffer in comparision to the other holes at CP - especially the imediately preceeding holes - but taken on its own merit I can think of holes on other great courses that are inferior. CPC is the greatest 18 I've run across.

[George Pazin]

I haven't played it, but it's hard to imagine the 18th at Pasatiempo qualifies in this category - maybe you guys have something against a par 3 finisher?

I might have agreed prior to being enlightened on GCA that 18 should be a tough finisher. Now, after watching seemingly every course on the tube with the PGA Tour end with a 450+ yard yawn, I like shorter par 4s to finish - I think I read somewhere that many UK courses have shorter 18ths due to the preponderence of matchplay. I thought Olympic's 18th was pretty great, save the minor problems encountered with certain hole locations. I think it's been modified since - anyone know the result?

Also, I think I read in either TD's or GS's book that the 18th tee at CP wasn't built because they felt it couldn't withstand Mother Nature. Geoff's book in particular makes 18 look pretty cool, at least shortly after the course's opening. Count me as one of those who think anything would be a letdown after 15-17 - I like Gene's analogy.

[ed_getka]

George,
I wasn't paying attention to the eighteenth hole reference when I posted about Pasatiempo. I pointed out the weak link at Pasatiempo which is #17. #18 at Pasatiempo is excellent. It provides a stern test for golfers coming to the final hole with the match on the line. Anything from 2 (unlikely) to 5+ is possible on that hole even if you hit the green with your first shot.

The green on 18 at Olympic is too flat now, at least at membership speed. When I played there one guy had to chip off the hillside above right of the hole (about 2'o'clock position) and his ball stopped ABOVE the hole which was absolutely impossible before the redo.

[George Pazin]

Ed -

Sorry about the misread. I get it now.

Tough situation about Olympic's 18th - after seeing the mishap, I guess I could understand wanting some changes, but this would seem to be a tough pill to swallow if you were a member. Altering a fantastic green for basically what amounts to one days play every 10-20 years.

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