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Matt_Ward

Best 36-hole complex / USA
« on: January 30, 2002, 02:22:43 PM »
Like to get the thoughts of the gang on the best 36-hole complex in the States. I've listed a few below and I see the competition as being a real barn burner between Bandon Dunes / Pacific Dunes versus Winged Foot (East & West) with Olympic Fields making some serious noise as well.

Among the others I can think of immediately include:

LACC
Merion
GC of Georgia
Oakland Hills
Pelican Hill
Pumpkin Ridge
Champions
Oak Hill
World Woods
Black Diamond
Baltusrol
Concord
Stow Acres
Montclair GC
Wilmington (Del)

*Sorry -- I had to leave out Whistling Straits because it's connected to the other 36 holes with Blackwolf Run.

I'm sure I'm missing a few others.

I'm hard pressed to say which is better between the 36 holes in Bandon and the 36 in Mamaroneck, NY. If I had to choose I'd have to flip a coin -- in my mind they're that close. Comments?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2002, 02:36:04 PM »
1. Winged Foot
2. Oakland Hills
3. Baltusrol

then a drop off


with Bandon and Pacific down here somewhere
Isn't Oak Hills 36?
LACC has a long and short course
There must be some others overlooked
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2002, 02:39:41 PM »
My vote is for Winged Foot. I, of course, have never played LACC or Bandon/Pacific. It is hard to imagine a better facility than WF, though. When I used to play there on a decent basis, I would go back and forth on which course I preferred. I am now firmly in the West camp, but the East is so strong.

Baltusrol is pretty strong. I have never played the Ocean course at Olympic, in its former condition, but shouldn't that warrant some inclusion?

Also, I would add Saucon Valley to this list. Admittedly, it is a 54 hole facility, but only after they acquired the Weyhill Course from Bethlehem Steel. The Old and Grace Courses make a pretty good combo.

Some others:

Westchester CC (south is a short one, but so is Merion W.)
The International
Oak Tree GC/CC?
Sea Island, Plantation/Seaside
Congressional
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2002, 03:35:20 PM »
If you allow 54 hole complexes you can't help but include Pebble Beach/Spyglass.  Good to see my old stompin' ground Stow Acres on Matt's list.  TPC Sawgrass (Stadium and Valley) is not that bad a combo, either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2002, 03:41:36 PM »
How about...18 in the morning...then lunch...then another 18 in the afternoon....all played at PINE VALLEY.

The best actual 36 hole complex that I have played would be Baltusrol, although I'm sure there are many other contenders I have not seen.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2002, 04:10:45 PM »
Some might not consider it one of the "best", but Detroit GC sports two 1916 Donald Ross layouts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2002, 04:50:26 PM »
SPDB:

I also like Winged Foot immensely, but the varying weather conditions at Bandon can ALWAYS make for interesting golf. I'll give a slight edge to WF for its tightly defended green complexes, particuoarly when you need to reach them with a long iron or wood on the big par-4's, but you must have total control of the ball in playing the duo at Bandon.

The one lone thing I don't find appealing at WF is the conversion of two holes into par-5's (9 & 16 on the West). The purpose has always been to increase the difficulty meter. That same strategy could also be done at Bandon -- both par-5's on the back side could be reduced to long par-4's.

If you take the West at WF you probably have a fair edge over Bandon, but conversely Pac Dunes is clearly stronger than the WF / East in my opinion.

This is the kind of epic battle you could go round and round with at any 37th hole!

In my mind it's a coin flip but if pressed I'd lean to Bandon / Pac Dunes because I'm partial to the proximity to the ocean and the always challenging condition provided by man and the Almighty.

Arguably, played from the tips in Open conditions, the West at WF NEVER suffers fools lightly. Much is made of Woods and his record four-round total at Augusta let's not forget what Davis Love III did in '97 at the PGA -- first time 270 was broken at WF -- impressive stuff regardless even with the conditions being a bit wet that week.

P.S. Olympia Fields deserves a good watch because the changes made to the Open (North) course in 03 are very solid and the South, while being a bit shorter and relatively tame gives plenty of punch on a few holes.

Rich -- had to mention Stow. Lots of fun to play and the quality of the terrain is really neat. I've always loved the 9th hole (462 yard par-4) on the North Course, among a few others. The South has the better terrain, but the North has a bit more punch for the better player. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2002, 06:00:18 PM »
I'm not sure how far into the construction they are, but
when the 2nd at Stonewall is done, I'm sure that club will be
on the leader board.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2002, 06:10:06 PM »
Matt -
I don't think there is much of a comparison between PD/BD and WF. Winged Foot, in my mind, wins this one in a landslide. There are probaby no two 36 hole complexes in this country that are as opposite as are WF and Bandon. The Oregon courses occupy some of the most dramatic property on God's green earth. The land on Fenimore Ave. is flat and totally uninspiring. What's more, the West Course sits on the inferior part of the property - at least the East has a pond and a creek.

Yet with this lackluster property, Tillie crafted a pair of absolute gems.  He could not rely on any natural features, dramatic dunes, or majestic views. Admittedly, most of the challenge comes from the tiny and severe greens and the bunker complexes that guard them. But what Tillie crafted out of that tight parcel is nothing short of amazing. That he managed to fit two courses of unquestionable artistic merit, and unflinching challenge into that same small land is simply mind-boggling. So from an architectural perspective (and that's really the only arena it can compete with Bandon, since it would get walloped on natural beauty), i think WF gets the overwhelming nod.

Sorry to ramble, but what an amazing club WF is, and blessed!!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2002, 06:10:56 PM »
Matt -
I don't think there is much of a comparison between PD/BD and WF. Winged Foot, in my mind, wins this one in a landslide. There are probaby no two 36 hole complexes in this country that are as opposite as are WF and Bandon. The Oregon courses occupy some of the most dramatic property on God's green earth. The land on Fenimore Ave. is flat and totally uninspiring. What's more, the West Course sits on the inferior part of the property - at least the East has a pond and a creek.

Yet with this lackluster property, Tillie crafted a pair of absolute gems.  He could not rely on any natural features, dramatic dunes, or majestic views. Admittedly, most of the challenge comes from the tiny and severe greens and the bunker complexes that guard them. But what Tillie crafted out of that tight parcel is nothing short of amazing. That he managed to fit two courses of unquestionable artistic merit, and unflinching challenge into that same small land is simply mind-boggling. So from an architectural perspective (and that's really the only arena it can compete with Bandon, since it would get walloped on natural beauty), i think WF gets the overwhelming nod.

Sorry to ramble, but what an amazing club WF is, and blessed!!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2002, 06:12:16 PM »
Winged Foot is my first choice and BD/PD my second as well.

Don't forget The Maidstone!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

SPDB1

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2002, 06:14:23 PM »
Matt -
I don't think there is much of a comparison between PD/BD and WF. Winged Foot, in my mind, wins this one in a landslide. There are probaby no two 36 hole complexes in this country that are as opposite as are WF and Bandon. The Oregon courses occupy some of the most dramatic property on God's green earth. The land on Fenimore Ave. is flat and totally uninspiring. What's more, the West Course sits on the inferior part of the property - at least the East has a pond and a creek.

Yet with this lackluster property, Tillie crafted a pair of absolute gems.  He could not rely on any natural features, dramatic dunes, or majestic views. Admittedly, most of the challenge comes from the tiny and severe greens and the bunker complexes that guard them. But what Tillie crafted out of that tight parcel is nothing short of amazing. That he managed to fit two courses of unquestionable artistic merit, and unflinching challenge into that same small land is simply mind-boggling. So from an architectural perspective (and that's really the only arena it can compete with Bandon, since it would get walloped on natural beauty), i think WF gets the overwhelming nod.

Sorry to ramble, but what an amazing club WF is, and blessed!!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2002, 06:18:15 PM »
What more testament to WF's challenge is there than Billy Casper's 1959 Open victory. All 4 rounds he laid up on the Par 3, Third hole, rather than risk being above the hole and face a downhill putt.

Who was it, when asked if he had any uphill putts during his rounds at WF and replied something to the effect of "sure, I had a ton, every time I missed one of my downhill putts."

I probably mangled that quote, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2002, 06:21:05 PM »
Gene -
Maidstone is 27. Right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim__janosik

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2002, 07:49:20 PM »
Matt:

I  know the  West Coast is sort of short on  good 36  hole tracks but  I question putting  Pelican Hill  on you list and not  the Mountain  and  Dunes  Courses  at the La  Quinta
Resort?  A  weak  Fazio  layout  in favor of  two  strong  Dye
layouts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike DeVries

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2002, 07:53:56 PM »
How about NGLA and Shinnecock Hills -- I know that is cheating, but they do touch each other! ;D

Cheers!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2002, 06:12:16 AM »
Rich,
   Wouldn't Pebble Beach be 72 holes + how ever many Peter Hay is?  PB, L@SB, SH, Olde Del Monte +Peter Hay.

I guess while I'm at it, a few other decent 36ers would be Troon North, Torrey Pines, Baltimore CC, Mauna Kea/Hapuna, True Blue/Caledonia, and probably a few more in Palm Springs and Scottsdale.  What about Talking Stick?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2002, 06:51:42 AM »
Scott - if you include everything inside the 17 mile drive, that's a LOT of golf holes!  But the ones that are part of the "Pebble Beach Company" are indeed PB, L@SB, SH and Del Monte.  So there's a good 72 hole "complex".  Poppy Hills is owned by the NCGA so stands alone (no further editorial comment).  CP stands alone for so many reasons I won't start here.

So the one true 36-hole club in there is indeed Mr. Huntley's Monterey Peninsula CC.  And while it is damn good now, it is likely gonna enter the VERY upper echelon when the renovation of the Shore is completed.

Rich - is there anywhere you HAVEN'T lived for awhile?  I plead ignorance as to what or where Stow Acres is.  But in the last few months I've learned you used to yacht on LI sound, and now this is a former "stomping ground."  I'm hoping they're geographically close.

Your life has the makings of a great book... you collaborate with Dan King on this, I get finder's fee.

TH

ps - another good 36 hole complex in that area is indeed Bayonet and Blackhorse courses at Fort Ord... they don't belong in a conversation including Winged Foot and BD/PD, but they hold their own amongst the others, I'd say.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2002, 06:52:38 AM »
Scott / Jim / et al:

My listing of 36-hole facilities was not meant to be a definitive rankings or listing in order -- those were ones that came to my mind right away. So I know I missed quite a few -- Vintage, Baltimore CC, etc, etc.

SPDB: With all due respect -- You think WF wins OK, that's one thing -- but in a landslide! No way! I love WF and if you've read my post I am a big fan but don't sell the qualities of the 36 at Bandon so fast. The layout there is more than just a postcard view of the Pacific Ocean.

I'd like to see Bandon host an event and for them to do the same prep work they normally do for other sites including WF. Like I said before reduce the two par-'5s on the back nine at Bandon to long par-4's (similiar to what is done at WF West's 9th & 16th) and you have a real bear.

The East is a fine course at WF -- but I'll take Pac Dunes anyday of the week. In my mind -- it's a battle of two wonderful places. Don't let history and the hosting of previous major championships (1959 Open and others) be the major selling point. You're right -- let's judge the architectural merits. Bandon has quite a few and this is no disrespect to WF which is a gem of the highest sort.

Sorry Mike DeVries -- National & SH don't count! ;D

P.S. Don't sell short the 36-holes at Olympia Fields -- the Open in 03 will "open" a few eyes there. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2002, 07:03:31 AM »
Tom,
    That's exactly what I was doing, since Whistling Straits and Blackwolf Run aren't officially 36 holes complexes (Blackwolf Run used to be), but the four courses of the American Club now, even though they're something like a half hour apart.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2002, 07:08:54 AM »
Modern-Bandon?  I haven't been there so I can't say

Clasical, hard to beat WF.  The East is better than most state's best course!

Classic vs. Modern.....the battle begins. 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2002, 07:14:31 AM »
Winged Foot is the obvious and deservedly best choice for a quality 36 hole facility.

Note to SPDB:  THe South course at Westchester CC has been almost totally revamped by Ken Dye.  It is now much more of a high course rating/slope challenge then the quaint 6000 yard original.  I thought that the original was a wonderful contrast and alternative to the West course.  THe new version lost much of the charm , however, several of the neat holes like the uphill par3 near the clubhouse are still intact.  Westchester should be considered among the finest 36 hole facilities in the country.

Here is a hidden gem-

Belleair CC in Clearview, Fla. has 36 holes of Donald Ross golf that is very well preserved.  Both courses are under 6500 yards and each has at least a couple of mundane holes yet I defy someone to go down there and shoot really good scores.  The land has many interesting features not often found on Florida courses. The greens are really excellent as are the surrounding short game areas.  Gettign up and down is not helped by that noxious weed known as common Burmuda grass which drives me NUTS.  There is a great old hotel not more then 100 steps from the first tees of the east and west courses so it is convenient for a visit.  I spent a fun/competitive 3 day weekend there a couple of weeks ago.  If you can find a member to get you on to play you will be rewarded by TWO fun golf courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2002, 07:40:18 AM »
Matt - I said up front that I have never played the two in Bandon, so maybe that disqualifies me from comparing the two.

I wasn't selling short the architecture at PD/BD, as best as I can tell, and from what I read, it is terrific - I'm not disputing that. I was trying to convey that what Tillinghast did with a flat, dull and small property was carve out two stunners.

Kidd and Doak were given a vast amount of acreage with which to work - nearly 2000 (?) and created two incredible courses. I don't want to diminish what was done there, because it is nothing short of magical, but could another arch have done a similar job? I am not sure, but maybe (C&C, perhaps?). Could another architect have taken the property that Tillie was given and produced the courses he did? I don't think so.

I know that really doesn't address the merits of each course, but when you talk about these two facilities you are really comparing apples to oranges.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman (Guest)

Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2002, 07:47:06 AM »
Wait, wait wait!

It's the National Shinnecock Golf Links Club of America.  They just merged.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Sayers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best 36-hole complex / USA
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2002, 08:09:52 AM »
I nominate Philadelphia Cricket Club – while the new 18 opens in April 2002, from what I can see it will be one of the best 36-hole complex in the area (Philadelphia).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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