[Chris Kane]

Following on from the thread about a US Open rota, I think the same principles could be applied to the Australian Open.  Here's the task:

Eight courses, must be able to accomodate an Open, and on somewhat controversial selections you need to explain why!

My list: dead boring and full of the usual suspects I concede, but useful for discussion

*Royal Sydney
*The Australian
*Royal Adelaide
*Royal Melbourne
*Kingston Heath
*Metropolitan
*Victoria
*The National Moonah or The Dunes (something a bit different)

[Dickie Nee]

Hey Chris,

What about Moonah Links? I know that is one of your favourites.

Dickie

[Paul Daley]

The first seven courses listed by Chris are "certified" Australian Open courses, and so is Moonah Links - making eight.

NSW at La Perouse is not an Australian Open course, but quality wise, is an absolute thoroughbred. It's location is awkward: handling the traffic is a concern, and lack of infrastructure - probably the way its members like it, may be a concern. It has hosted Australian PGA's and Scotland's Andrew Coltart has won twice over the windswept layout.
Jack Nicklaus went on record in the mid-70s as saying it was the best of all Australian courses - a comment that carries some weight, although at that time, he was well into his much publicised diet.

Hard to imagine ex-Australian venues such as: Royal Queensland, Royal Hobart, Kooyonga, and Lake Karrinyup being rushed back into the fray.

[Justin_Ryan]

Jack Newton raised exactly the same issue ahead of the last Open at The Grand.  For what it's worth, his rota comprised
Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath, Metropolitan, Huntingdale, The Australian, Royal Sydney, Royal Adelaide and Lake Karrinyup.  Of course, given the work his firm has done at Huntingdale, he never misses an opportunity to talk it up.

Somewhat controversially, he said that the Open should never be taken to Queensland because of the Bermuda greens.  I would imagine that newer courses up there such as Brookwater and The Glades will stick their hands up in years to come

Chris, if they could just add some length and some strategically placed pot bunkers, I am sure that Commonwealth would earn a place on the rota.  If only they had let Hartley realise his vision on the rest of the course.  I also believe that your favorite golf writer, Tom Ramsey, believes that there should be no rota at all, but it should be held at Laguna Quays every year.

[Brian Walshe]

Justin,

I was expecting you to nominate Medway.  Then we could all watch from your front verandah.......

[corey miller]

Chris- I know you don't like the Moonah open course, what was your doak scale rating?  one of the things you mentioned was something to the effect of what could hve been done with the property.  anyway, you propose a fine list the problem with these places is in order to hold the open changes will be made to the courses.  Isn't better to build a 7500 yard monstrosity rather than defame the older courses.  To much risk in proposing the courses you really like because the powers that be are going to change things from time to time.

I would rather have the US open at Torrey Pines than finding 400 yards and making changes at any of the classic courses.  I sure some of the Riviera members would love to have the OPen at Torrey Pines if it meant no changes to their course.

[Chris Kane]

Corey,

This thread is about discussing what is ideal: what we'd like to see , which is not always what will end up happening.

If I had my way the Australian Open would only be played on traditional venues, such as the first seven on my list.  If this tournament is to regain its international reputation and prestige, there must be something distinguishing it from the PGA Tour event being played the same week.  I'm told many of the internationals at the Aus.Open last yr were quite disappointed they were played the Grand and not one of the great old Australian courses.

I disagree that they should hold the event at courses like Moonah Links: I'd rather they did the right thing and set up the traditional courses they way they were meant to be played.  This is in an ideal world of course, which isn't even close to existing today.

What's my Doak scale rating of Moonah Links?  I'm not going to give a Doak scale rating becuase I don't believe its my place to use a scale I don't know properly: Tom Doak has travelled the world and rated 900 courses, so he has a large set of courses to use as comparison.  I don't.  What do I think of Moonah Links?  Not much.  Thats enough said.

Justin's comment regarding Commonwealth: please don't make me feel sick!  I'd rather they never hosted a tournament than wreck it as part of a false notion that we're in line for an Open.  How could Commonwealth get an Open?  Full restoration of the great old course, which would elevate it back into the realms of the sandbelt elite.  The huge new area recently purchased out the back would beset the infrastructure problems.

[Justin_Ryan]

Corey
I am with you on this one.  It is much better to hold the Open on a purpose built facility such as Moonah Links than have it on the Sandbelt, where the "Open Doctors" will make ill advised and often downright stupid changes that do nothing but detract from already great golf courses.  These courses have stood the test of time, generally speaking have no room to expand and are already plenty tough enough for the members.  Why these clubs would even countenance changing their courses for a four day event with a field whose games bear no resemblance to that of the general membership is beyond me.  I cannot understand why Victoria put its hand up to hold the Open this year, except that it feels that it will help it rise back up the rankings.

Chris is right that many players were disappointed with The Grand last year, but the reality is that playing the Open on "traditional" venues will not help restore its international reputation.  One of its major problems is that it cannot even attract many leading Australian players, let alone international players, because they are all playing for the big dollars in the US.  These guys will only play if they are offered truckloads of money, not for the opportunity to play an event at Royal Melbourne.

Brian
I think that was hook, line and sinker

[Dickie Nee]

Hey Chris,

Maybe you cant give Moonah Links a score on the Doak scale. After all you have not played it - so it would be hard to rate it. You really need to play it to pass judgement. After all you are just into knocking TWP because they are unpopular on this site. Agree?    

[Chris Kane]

Dickie,

I have walked all 18 holes, which means I could rate it.  I choose not to.  Your second comment I don't feel the need to respond to.  

Also, can you say who you are?  It would assist me to know what your interests are.  What do you think of Moonah Links?

Justin,

I agree with you that the courses alone will not assist the event, but it would be a start.  I also agree that with the current AGU policy of "modernising" courses, it is better to use a purpose built facility, such as Moonah Links (Dickie, we'll have to wait and see how it performs during the Open.  Notice that I've never said it will be a poor course for the Open.  I just don't agree with it being held there.  We'll find out in November next year.

Lets hope that the powers that be will change their current policy.

Regarding the Grand, no matter how it played during the Open, the club exploited the AGU's financial situation...buying an Australian Open is poor form.

[Dickie Nee]

Hey Chris,

I am just a lurker who is sick of you always having a go at my friends at TWP. Go and play the course and then come up with something original instead of parroting what other have said. I have not played it yet so wont pass a comment either way. After all it may be a dog and you may be right.

Dickie  

[Chris Kane]

Dickie,

What's worse: jumping on the bandwagon or blind loyalty?

In any case, I refute your allegation in its entirety.  If it's considered wrong to have an opinion, then why have this board?  All I've ever done in express my opinion.  The fact that they're mirrored by many others means one of two things:

1.  All I'm capable of is rephrasing the criticism of TWP expressed by others here.
2.  Maybe your friends at TWP might not be as gifted in the design field as they claim.  They may be nice people, with the best intentions, but their results have in many cases proved a disappointment.

I might go and spend 75 dollars and see something I've already seen (as well as endure a 5 1/2hr round + half a dozen lost balls, or maybe I could have two rounds at Portsea, where a superb design.  I don't see the point of going to ML.  If I wanted to experience the feeling of a "country club for a day", I'd go America and have the real thing.  ML sets a dangerous precedent for golf in this country IMHO.

[Shane Gurnett]

Funny how all these Australian threads end up with debates/slagging of TWP. In this case I dont think the issue is whether or not the TWP design of Moonah Links is any good, rather whether the Australian Open should be able to be "bought". In my view, the Australian Open remains our most prestigeous tournament, and therefore should be a celebration of our best courses, whether they are old or new, or in the north or the south. JUst dont mess with the design for four days of golf.

Justin Ryan, you are a very cheeky boy. I hope the National engages Hartley to fix up all those dodgy greens on the RTJ course one day. Then you'll see how it should be done. Commonwealth just needs little fine tuning to remove some of the "stains" of the last ten years. Hopefully we'll get there soon.

[Justin_Ryan]

Dickie
Why don't you take up Chris's challenge and reveal yourself.  You have to give the kid some credit for attempting to bring some Australian topics to the DG so lurkers such as yourself will have some local topics to read and write about.  And you can't seriously believe that Chris is knocking TWP solely because they are unpopular on this site.  They are unpopular for some very good reasons, and I could write an essay about the course they did at my club, but it is not really considered good form to bag your own club in public forums.  Instead of trying to provokes a response from Chris on Moonah Links, his opinion of which you can look up on plenty of other threads, why don't you make some suggestions on an Australian Open Rota as this thread was intended.  

[Chris Kane]

Shane,

My point exactly.

[bigger_picture]

Justin just to let you know that The Glades greens are A4 bent grass. To suggest as Jack Newton has that the Australian Open should never be taken to Queensland because of the bermuda greens factor flies in the face of reason. This is after all the Australian Open we are talking about and despite the protestations of some further south it is very much part of Australia and golf in Australia. After all three of Australia's last four major winners grew up on Bermuda greens. Didn't do them a lot of harm.

The Australian Open must portray Australian conditions otherwise let's hold it in Europe or the US under their conditions and just call it the Australian Open.

Improved maintenance skills and techniques have resulted in courses such as the Grand and Royal Queensland presenting  high quality tifgreen greens. I'm not suggesting that those courses should hold the Australian Open but to deny Queensland the right to hold an Open because only Bermuda does well there holds no water with me. It is like suggesting that the French Open (tennis) should not be a major because they play on clay. Surely the best golfers are those who can adapt to any conditions as long as they are provided a true and good putting surface. Even those who felt the Grand was not a worthy venue could not deny the quality of the greens.

I would also like someone to clarify to me at what point a golf course becomes traditional. I am not here to defend Queensland golf but hopefully to balance the argument. I can say however that in time The Glades, Brookwater, Pelican Waters and Hope Island will all have the credentials, if selected, to stage an Australian Open and identify a quality winner. That's providing of course they have qualified for the title traditional whatever that may be.

 

Jack Newton raised exactly the same issue ahead of the last Open at The Grand.  For what it's worth, his rota comprised
Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath, Metropolitan, Huntingdale, The Australian, Royal Sydney, Royal Adelaide and Lake Karrinyup.  Of course, given the work his firm has done at Huntingdale, he never misses an opportunity to talk it up.

Somewhat controversially, he said that the Open should never be taken to Queensland because of the Bermuda greens.  I would imagine that newer courses up there such as Brookwater and The Glades will stick their hands up in years to come

Chris, if they could just add some length and some strategically placed pot bunkers, I am sure that Commonwealth would earn a place on the rota.  If only they had let Hartley realise his vision on the rest of the course.  I also believe that your favorite golf writer, Tom Ramsey, believes that there should be no rota at all, but it should be held at Laguna Quays every year.

[Chris Kane]

Bigger Picture:

You make some good points there: particularly the one about the tournament ideally portraying Australian conditions.

I havn't had any experience playing on bermuda greens, so I can't comment on them, but to deny Queensland an Open solely becuase of the green surfaces is IMO unrealistic.  The question is whether there are any Queensland venues worthy of an Open, and again I can't comment becuase I havn't seen them.

[dR_kILDARE (Guest)]

I agree with Chris that you have made some excellent points BP.

I think The Glades will be our best opportunity of gaining another Aus Open. Pelican Waters (also Sharkie designed) has some merit too, particularly when that wind springs up.
Havn't seen the Brookwater site yet but hearing one common response..TOUGH COURSE when it opens.
Funny that, three new Norman layouts all getting hot reviews.

I think all three will be worthy of tournament play but I doubt if it will get an Aus Open.

Also, have any of you guys played Kennedy Bay in Perth ?
A tough layout i'm told but has it a shot at tournament play ?

[Justin_Ryan]

Good to see we are back on the topic.

I would guess that over time we will see the Open played at KH, RM, RS, ML with the likely addition of some newer Queensland courses such as Brookwater and The Glades as they continue the move away from traditional venues. I would think that financial imperatives would see it going to the newer commercial operations in Queensland before it went back to Royal Adelaide.  For all the grumbling about the Grand, it did produce a worthy winner and a pretty good top ten, so it can't have been all bad.

Of course I haven't seen any of these Queensland courses, and are thus susceptible to the Glades and Brookwater hype machines, but I am hoping to head up there at some time during the Melbourne winter and play them, as well as Hope Island, so if anyhow has any other suggestions or is interested in a game, please let me know.

[Chris Kane]

I don't have any particular problem with the Queensland courses mentioned hosting an Open, but only if their earn it, rather than paying big bucks like The Grand did.  If these newer courses can prove themselves as being among our best designs, then they deserve to host the event, whether they have bent, bermuda or poa greens (or sandgreens for that matter!).

A good point about last year Justin: producing a worthy winner is what it's all about.

With these Queensland courses, I'd like to see them host some regular tour events before they are elevated to hosting our national championship.  This is the best way for them to prove that they have what it takes.  It should be a very big step to go from being worthy of a tournament to being worthy of an Open IMHO.

What's a traditional course?  Have a look at the Open venues up until 2001.  Courses built pre-WW2 (is this accurate?).  With all due respect to these Queensland resort courses, however good they may be, it will be a long time before they could possibly be regarded as traditional.  This does not rule them out of an Aust Open or make them lesser courses IMO.

Moving away from the ideal, becuase its a dead cause now, I think the best compromise situation would be to play two Opens on traditional venues, then a modern course the next yr.  Not always in that order, but the idea would be to hold two-thirds of the Opens at the classics, and the rest at courses like The Glades, Moonah Links (to appease Dickie Nee), and the rest.

[Justin_Ryan]

Chris
With Moonah Links supposed to hold an Open at least every three years, and Sydney and most likely Queensland going to want it in other years, it would seem likely that we will not be seeing much of the Open on the sandbelt.  However, I think it would be fair to place a big question mark over the viability of the Open on ML (or anywhere else on the Mornington Peninsula) unless the tournament was shifted into the Christmas/New Year holiday period when the area is absolutely packed.

[Chris Kane]

Justin,

When they announced the ML project and the Open there, I wondered about the viability of such an ambitious move.  Its over an hour from Melbourne, and I can't see them getting the crowds they want.  The sandbelt in in the heart of suburbia, and has ease of access for the public.  ML is in the middle of nowhere by comparison.

If they held in in the New Year, as you suggest, it might be very successful, but I don't see them doing that becuase that period is their time to make a killing on green fees.

Regardless of the merits of the course, I think the AGU have set themselves up perfectly for a disappointment.  Can't see the corporates getting involved heavily like they usually do becuase of the distance.  Where would the players and the rest stay?  You can't have them all being helicoptered in!  The AGU must have something up their sleeve.

The whole concept just doesn't seem viable to me.  This is without even contemplating the standard of the course.  This being said, I'm sure the AGU did their research before they committing to ML.

[Dickie Nee]

Hey Chris,

Good to see you not commenting on things you know nothing about eg. Bermuda greens or Queenslannd venues.

Keep it up.

Dickie
 

[MikeClayton]

Chris

Bet your parents house on Tiger playing at ML

Justin
Victoria took the Open because they are a club who have always enjoyed tournaments and the fact that its there has helped to get more of the restoration done.The changes that havnt been strictly restorative have been minor -new tees at 5 and 9 and a new bunker at 18 -so hopefully the traps others have fallen into have been avoided.
Plus its great motivation for the guys on the groundstaff.

As for the rota it gets to be thin pickings after the first 7 or 8.
Perhaps we dont have as many great and very good courses as we like to think.

[Chris Kane]

Mike,

At what odds?

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