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Bill Brightly

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Doak at North Shore and lots more
« on: February 15, 2011, 11:34:37 AM »
 in this month's Met Golfer Magazine, including interviews with Doak and Rees Jones in a good 12 page section on architecture. Go to this link, and on the right side, look for "Best-Laid Plans," then hit link for Architecture Special.



http://www.mgagolf.org/



« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 11:46:50 AM by Bill Brightly »
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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 11:52:29 AM »
I think it is very informative to golfers who are not regularly reading about gca.  Rees Jones said they added a pond at #18 of the Lower Course at Baltusrol - can someone tell me why? 
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 12:10:03 PM »
Thanks much for linking that, Bill.

Is Thomas Dunne our own Tom Dunne?  If so, excellent work, Tom - that was really a very well-written article.

I don't know anything about Mr. Zucker, but I like him a lot already -- rare is the man of his age and success who can be so genuinely interested in and praising of another man's work and creativity.  (Or maybe not so rare, I just haven't met many myself...but then again, why would I?).

Peter
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George Pazin

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 12:20:03 PM »
Quote from: PPallotta on February 15, 2011, 12:10:03 PM
Is Thomas Dunne our own Tom Dunne?  If so, excellent work, Tom - that was really a very well-written article.

Yes it is. He has written a lot of terrific stuff on golf over the years, mostly for T&L Golf, if memory serves (hope I got that right, my memory isn't what it used to be).
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2011, 01:07:06 PM »
There's some (mostly uninformed) stuff about us as well:

Quote
The leading architecture site is 12-year-old GolfClubAtlas.com, run by Ran Morrissett, which posts essays, lists, and discussion boards that can become quite spirited, creating what Klein calls “a high noise-to-signal ratio.” Others echo that sentiment. One architect, a former fan, describes GCA as a “noble idea now run by the inmates.” Another says, “The course reviews and articles are awesome. I’m less enthused about much of the blog.” Still, most architecture geeks are likely to agree with KemperSports president Josh Lesnik, who calls GCA “addicting.”

Another favorite site is maxslounge.com, launched two years ago by Tommy Naccarato, who once worked at GCA. To keep the discourse civil, Naccarato restricts access to the lounge.

Ulrich
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Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Steve Lapper

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2011, 02:09:30 PM »
Quote from: Jerry Kluger on February 15, 2011, 11:52:29 AM
I think it is very informative to golfers who are not regularly reading about gca.  Rees Jones said they added a pond at #18 of the Lower Course at Baltusrol - can someone tell me why? 


I think Rees moved the existing pond a bit and cleaned up its fringes.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

JESII

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2011, 02:17:43 PM »
Steve,

Any idea which direction he moved it?

Sorry for the diversion Bill.
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Bill Brightly

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2011, 02:28:21 PM »
Don't mind the diversion at all, I am also curious about the pond at Baltustrol 18. Looking at Google Earth, I think the bushes in front of the pond have been removed and maybe it cuts closer to the fairway and also deeper off the tee so the bombers can't fly it. Can anyone post old Google map image vs current?
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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2011, 02:40:28 PM »
My recollection was that there was a stream cutting through which fed a pond down below at the par 3.
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Steve Lapper

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 03:39:48 PM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on February 15, 2011, 02:17:43 PM
Steve,

Any idea which direction he moved it?

Sorry for the diversion Bill.

He pulled it back towards the tee (definitely in play from the tips). The bushes were removed and the high swamp grass removed. That pond still feeds the stream that connects into the more prominent pond in front of the 4th's green. Hope that helps.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

JESII

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 04:44:03 PM »
It does, thanks...to Bill as well.
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Philippe Binette

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 05:29:55 PM »
love rees jones 'wilderness' quote

funny
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Bill Brightly

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 05:32:30 PM »
Look at Google Earth, then slide the time bar back two years. looks like the pond is much wider and cut much tighter to the fairway. I think it is a great change.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2011, 05:40:31 PM »
Bill,

Now take back what you said, "Look at Google Earth, then slide the time bar back two years. looks like the pond is much wider and cut much tighter to the fairway. I think it is a great change."

Someone on here might believe that you're actually praising work done by Rees Jones...
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Tom Dunne

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2011, 06:09:42 PM »
Credit where it's due: The Met section has such a deep pool of quality golf courses that producing these features wouldn't have been possible (for me, at least) without polling a wide range of friends and acquaintances from this site. That includes (but probably isn't limited to, I apologize if I forget anyone): Keith O'Halloran; Bill Brightly; Mike Sweeney; Steve Lapper; Jim Urbina; George Bahto; Noel Freeman; Geoff Childs; Mark Chalfant; Mike Policano; Mike DeVries. Thanks to all for your insights.
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Bill Brightly

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2011, 06:28:05 PM »
I can't comment on all the work that Rees did at Baltustrol, but on the hole in question, he seems to have removed heavy (wet) rough (that saved me on a few occassions...) and and a few bushes that protected the pond...and brought the water more into play off the tee, changes that this webite should almost universally endorse. He has done very good restorsation work at Hackensack, exactly what we hired him to do. Perhaps some who criticize him for work on other older courses should be mad at the people who decided that work needed to be done.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 09:31:34 AM by Bill Brightly »
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2011, 08:08:10 PM »
Bill,

I spoke with Rick Wolffe about this. It turns out that Rees DIDN'T add a pond:

"On 18 Lower, Rees Jones did not add a pond.  There has been a pond on 18 Lower since this golf hole was opened in 1922.  One or two years ago, this existing pond, which runs laterally along the left side of the drive zone, was dredged and widened by about 5 yards in the rough towards the fairway.  The rough grass between the fairway and the pond was removed and now the fairway runs alongside the pond.  As originally designed by Tillinghast the fairway ran alongside this pond.  The strip of rough which used to run between the pond and the fairway was put in place in advance of the 1980 US Open per the advise of the USGA. The existing dam, which is crumbling, will be replaced sometime in future before the 2016 PGA."

So here again is another example of his restoring the hole to the original design feature as Tilly had it...
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2011, 08:42:09 PM »
Quote from: Tom Dunne on February 15, 2011, 06:09:42 PM
Mike Sweeney; Thanks to all for your insights.

Tom,

Thanks for the plug and I am pleased that Southampton #5 came in LAST on your list !

However, I can't believe how comfortably you sold out Brooklyn, NY on your byline !!!
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Tom Dunne

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2011, 09:36:37 PM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on February 15, 2011, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: Tom Dunne on February 15, 2011, 06:09:42 PM
Mike Sweeney; Thanks to all for your insights.

Tom,

Thanks for the plug and I am pleased that Southampton #5 came in LAST on your list !

However, I can't believe how comfortably you sold out Brooklyn, NY on your byline !!!

Argh, they're not ranked! Southampton is last because I wrote it last. I leave it to the finer minds of this site to actually debate what order they might be arranged in. I'm also curious if I made any egregious omissions.

As for the byline, I wasn't consulted on that one. It's accurate enough, I suppose, but if I were really "of Mamaroneck" I'd probably be posting on a cannoli forum. Italian markets everywhere you look here! Beats Carroll Gardens hands-down. I was shoveling snow a couple of weeks ago with my Calabrian neighbor and we were talking soccer football. I asked him if was a fan of Serie A and who he supported. He dramatically stabbed his shovel into the snowbank and growled, "Whoever's beating BERLUSCONI." I never got a laugh like that from a neighbor in Brooklyn. 

 
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jeffwarne

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2011, 10:25:54 PM »
Liberty national is renovating "14 of 18 holes" as it enters its' second "half decade"
That may be the most priceless phrase ever written
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JR Potts

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2011, 10:56:43 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on February 15, 2011, 08:08:10 PM
Bill,

I spoke with Rick Wolffe about this. It turns out that Rees DIDN'T add a pond:

"On 18 Lower, Rees Jones did not add a pond.  There has been a pond on 18 Lower since this golf hole was opened in 1922.  One or two years ago, this existing pond, which runs laterally along the left side of the drive zone, was dredged and widened by about 5 yards in the rough towards the fairway.  The rough grass between the fairway and the pond was removed and now the fairway runs alongside the pond.  As originally designed by Tillinghast the fairway ran alongside this pond.  The strip of rough which used to run between the pond and the fairway was put in place in advance of the 1980 US Open per the advise of the USGA. The existing dam, which is crumbling, will be replaced sometime in future before the 2016 PGA."

So here again is another example of his restoring the hole to the original design feature as Tilly had it...


...and another example of the Rees bashers lining up to take their swipes without the facts...
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2011, 12:04:04 AM »
It appears that the author of the North Shore article got his facts wrong. At least John Paul Newport of the Wall Street Journal didn't concerning my role in the Raynor-MacDonald discovery.
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Jeff Doerr

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Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2011, 09:35:42 AM »
Quote from: Tom Dunne on February 15, 2011, 09:36:37 PM
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on February 15, 2011, 08:42:09 PM
Quote from: Tom Dunne on February 15, 2011, 06:09:42 PM
Mike Sweeney; Thanks to all for your insights.

Tom,

Thanks for the plug and I am pleased that Southampton #5 came in LAST on your list !

However, I can't believe how comfortably you sold out Brooklyn, NY on your byline !!!

Argh, they're not ranked! Southampton is last because I wrote it last. I leave it to the finer minds of this site to actually debate what order they might be arranged in. I'm also curious if I made any egregious omissions.

As for the byline, I wasn't consulted on that one. It's accurate enough, I suppose, but if I were really "of Mamaroneck" I'd probably be posting on a cannoli forum. Italian markets everywhere you look here! Beats Carroll Gardens hands-down. I was shoveling snow a couple of weeks ago with my Calabrian neighbor and we were talking soccer football. I asked him if was a fan of Serie A and who he supported. He dramatically stabbed his shovel into the snowbank and growled, "Whoever's beating BERLUSCONI." I never got a laugh like that from a neighbor in Brooklyn. 

 

OT to golf, but beautiful Tom, just beautiful. Sending me off to work with a smile.
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"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
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Carl Rogers

Re: Doak at North Shore and lots more
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2011, 03:10:25 PM »
In reading this article, I am struck by the possibility that this course re-work / re-design / re-routing effort make make a more unique and distinctive course than a brand new course or a course that might singularly be a Doak or a MacDonald or a Raynor.

I assume that being private, it is very inaccessible.
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