[BCowan]

2016 List

1.   Old Town (Maxwell)        9.2
 2.   Pinehurst #2 (Ross)       9
 3.   Orchard Lake (Alison)     8.5
 4.   Holston Hills  (Ross)       8.4
 5.   Mid Pines (Ross)             8.2
 6.   Franklin Hills (Ross)        8.1
 7.   Inverness  (Ross)           7.6
 7.   Moraine (Campbell)        7.6
 9.   Kingsley  (DeVries)         7.4
10.  Kirtland                          7.3
11.  Battle Creek (WPJ)        7.2
12.  Old Elm (Colt/Ross)        7.1
12.  Timuquana (Ross)          7.1
14.  Scioto (Ross)                  7
15.  UofM (Maxwell/Mack)      6.9
15.  Pine Needles (Ross)       6.9
17.  Ravisloe (Ross)               6.8
17.  Indianwood Old (Reid)    6.8
19.  Oakland Hills South         6.7
20.  Belvedere (Watson)        6.6
21.  Lookout Mtn (Raynor)      6.5
22.  Naples National               6.4
23.  Dormie (C&C)                   6.3
23.  Diamond Springs(DeVries)6.3
25.  OSU Scarlet (Pre JN)         6.2

I graded harder this year on firmness.  softness was a bigger deduction.

2017 List

1.   Old Town                   9.2
2.   Pinehurst #2             9
3.   Orchard Lake             8.5
4.   Holston Hills               8.4
5.   Brookside (Canton)  8.3
5.   Mid Pines                    8.3
7.   Moraine                      8.2
8.   Franklin Hills               8.1
9.   Meadowbrook           7.9
10. Inverness                   7.6
11. Kinglsey                      7.4
11. Flossmoor                  7.4
13. Kirtland                       7.3
13. Greywalls                  7.3
15. Battle Creek                7.2
16. Old Elm                         7.1
16. Timuquana                    7.1
18. Scioto                            7
19. UofM                              6.9
19. Pine Needles                 6.9
21. Ravisloe                         6.8
21. Indianwood Old             6.8
23. Oakland Hills S               6.7
24. Belvedere                       6.6
25. The Golf Club.               6.5

[Duncan Cheslett]

Peter,


I'm not playing golf courses any more. I've given up - I've deteriorated so much. I'm still interested in courses, however.

You may wonder why I have given up playing. The sad fact is that I can no longer get across two of the holes at Wilmslow, par 3s across ravines with nowhere to drop out safely. It is purgatory. I also can no longer get on any of the par 4s in two shots.


It is soul destroying. But I take my camera with me, and though the photos are but average, they give an impression of the course that comes with a bit of experience - you soon learn which photos to throw away!


I'm currently engaged in a photographic survey of all the courses in Cheshire, in time for the 2020 Centenary of the Cheshire Union of Golf Courses. There are some great courses such as Royal Liverpool, Delamere Forest, Prestbury and Wallasey, but there are also little gems that need a little boost such as Wirral Ladies' and Knutsford. Knutsford is unusual in being a 10-hole course (separate 9th and 18th holes) but I can still play it (no compulsory carries over ravines) and you can get a 9-hole discounted green fee on weekday afternoons - my wife and I will have a glorious time, no matter what standard the golf.

Mark,

It is sad to hear that you are no longer able to get enjoyment from playing golf at your home club. We have a strong Senior section at Reddish Vale and several of our chaps are facing exactly the same dilemma.

I am agitating quietly for the Red tees to be made available to seniors if they so choose, and in several instances for them to be moved substantially forward so as dramatically to reduce the length of carry needed, and indeed the playing distance of the hole. The most successful holes for Ladies at Reddish are the 2nd and the 8th, where the Red tees are well forward. Both holes are then reachable in regulation by well struck shots by even weakish players. The hard work around and on the green still has to be done, though.

Thankfully Ken Moodie, our new consultant architect (and member) is in full agreement, and the redistribution of forward tees will form a integral part of his forthcoming report on the course and proposals for improvement. Mixed tee competitions are being promoted by England Golf and we see this as the way forward. Unfortunately the more masochistic element of our Senior section will take some convincing. Some of them seem to think that it must be either the white tees or golfing oblivion.


The ladies too can resent suggestions that "their" tee could be moved forward so as to make the hole more interesting and enjoyable. I fail to see the pleasure to be gained from hitting driver, 3-wood, 3-wood, 3-wood, seven iron, wedge into a par 5.

Golf is such a fantastic pursuit for older folk, in terms of exercise and social inclusion, that it is a travesty that anyone should feel the need to give it up simply because they can no longer hit the ball very far. Particularly as eminent a proponent  and sage of the game as yourself.

I look forward to seeing your photos of Cheshire courses. Have you been to Reddish recently? We must meet up.

Jayne and I are always up for a game at Knutsford or the marvellous Wirral Ladies!



And anyway, you're not even that old!  One of my regular playing partners is 87 next month, and has just bought a new Motocaddy. He went for it because of the 5 year guarantee!

[Thomas Dai]

There is a stigma amongst men about playing from the Red tees as "Red" in their mind indicates "Ladies".
There is also a stigma about good lady players using further back "Mens" tees.
Time to change the colours? Especially get rid of "red"!
Gold, silver and bronze or something and any player plays from any of them depending on their personal ability?
atb

[Adam Lawrence]

There is a stigma amongst men about playing from the Red tees as "Red" in their mind indicates "Ladies".
There is also a stigma about good lady players using further back "Mens" tees.
Time to change the colours? Especially get rid of "red"!
Gold, silver and bronze or something and any player plays from any of them depending on their personal ability?
atb

I like the system used a lot in Scandinavia where the tees are numbered to indicate their length -- the 6800m tees are the '68s', 6000m tees are '60s' etc. Informative and non discriminatory.

[Sean_A]

There is a stigma amongst men about playing from the Red tees as "Red" in their mind indicates "Ladies".
There is also a stigma about good lady players using further back "Mens" tees.
Time to change the colours? Especially get rid of "red"!
Gold, silver and bronze or something and any player plays from any of them depending on their personal ability?
atb

I like the system used a lot in Scandinavia where the tees are numbered to indicate their length -- the 6800m tees are the '68s', 6000m tees are '60s' etc. Informative and non discriminatory.

Adam


Does each set of blocks actually have the course yardage on it and the yardage of the hole?  This idea is intriguing.


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

There is a stigma amongst men about playing from the Red tees as "Red" in their mind indicates "Ladies".
There is also a stigma about good lady players using further back "Mens" tees.
Time to change the colours? Especially get rid of "red"!
Gold, silver and bronze or something and any player plays from any of them depending on their personal ability?
atb

I like the system used a lot in Scandinavia where the tees are numbered to indicate their length -- the 6800m tees are the '68s', 6000m tees are '60s' etc. Informative and non discriminatory.

Adam


Does each set of blocks actually have the course yardage on it and the yardage of the hole?  This idea is intriguing.


Ciao

I agree. It sounds an excellent idea.


Tees not only have to be made non-gender specific, but to all have the same par and stroke index. Many par 4's for men play as par 5's for Ladies. I find this ridiculous. Move the tee forward so that it plays as a par 4 for anyone who only hits the ball 150 yards max.

[Adam Lawrence]

Where I've seen that system used the tee markers themselves tend to be the numbers. Hole length info on scorecard and possibly on a board in a convenient spot by the tee blocks.


I remember debating with my group what tees to play at Bro Hof Slott in Sweden. We settled on something like the 58s (5,800m so about 6,300 yards). Should be nice and manageable right? First hole was a par five that played -- FROM THOSE TEES -- about 520m (570 yards). I hit a super drive, an OK five wood and a very good five wood and was in the fronting bunker!

[Ian Galbraith]

...

I like the system used a lot in Scandinavia where the tees are numbered to indicate their length -- the 6800m tees are the '68s', 6000m tees are '60s' etc. Informative and non discriminatory.

That is so simple and eminently sensible that it will never catch on !

[Thomas Dai]

It is indeed an intriguing system.
Still an ego element though - the “I am a good player”....even though he isn’t really.....”so I’m gong to play off the 68’s/70’s”. Not sure how you irradicate ego and stigma though. Cattle prod maybe!
Atb

[jeffwarne]

I like the number tee idea


Taking it a step farther
Why does a forward and mid tee have to be rated for both men and women?


i.e. shouldn't a 5000 yard course simply be rated -and your handicap be based on that regardless of gender?

[Rick Lane]

I like the number tee idea


Taking it a step farther
Why does a forward and mid tee have to be rated for both men and women?

That's a really interesting question and probably worthy of its own topic.  My initial reaction is that men hit it 240 and women hit it 170, so from the same tees, they end up in different spots with very different approach shots to the same greens. My assumption being that each hole is then rated differently because of that, for each gender.   But your point seems correct:   So what?  So a woman playing that hole, or 18 of them, will have a higher handicap. You could ignore gender and just treat it like it is for a long hitter versus a short hitter?   But maybe someone on this thread knows the reason? 


i.e. shouldn't a 5000 yard course simply be rated -and your handicap be based on that regardless of gender?

[Ira Fishman]

The numbered tee idea is brilliant.  But I would take it one step further because we are so conditioned by the colors: make Black the Forward tees, Blue the next, White the next, Gold/Green the next, and Red the far back.  That way all of the people who should be playing Gold/Green can say that they played the Blues.


Ira

[Rich Goodale]

Most of my serious golf these days is with low handicap seniors, including several former Walker Cup players.  6500 is the standard length, and even the best of them hit driver/3 iron to most of the 400+ yard holes.  Hitting a 500 yard par-5 in two is as rare as an orgasm for many of them.


I had dinner recently with a once very good stick who now plays from the ladies tees. I'll be there with him soon, assuming I am still alive.

[BCowan]

2016 List

1.   Old Town (Maxwell)        9.2
 2.   Pinehurst #2 (Ross)       9
 3.   Orchard Lake (Alison)     8.5
 4.   Holston Hills  (Ross)       8.4
 5.   Mid Pines (Ross)             8.2
 6.   Franklin Hills (Ross)        8.1
 7.   Inverness  (Ross)           7.6
 7.   Moraine (Campbell)        7.6
 9.   Kingsley  (DeVries)         7.4
10.  Kirtland                          7.3
11.  Battle Creek (WPJ)        7.2
12.  Old Elm (Colt/Ross)        7.1
12.  Timuquana (Ross)          7.1
14.  Scioto (Ross)                  7
15.  UofM (Maxwell/Mack)      6.9
15.  Pine Needles (Ross)       6.9
17.  Ravisloe (Ross)               6.8
17.  Indianwood Old (Reid)    6.8
19.  Oakland Hills South         6.7
20.  Belvedere (Watson)        6.6
21.  Lookout Mtn (Raynor)      6.5
22.  Naples National               6.4
23.  Dormie (C&C)                   6.3
23.  Diamond Springs(DeVries)6.3
25.  OSU Scarlet (Pre JN)         6.2

I graded harder this year on firmness.  softness was a bigger deduction.

2017 List

1.   Old Town                   9.2
2.   Pinehurst #2             9
3.   Orchard Lake             8.5
4.   Holston Hills               8.4
5.   Brookside (Canton)  8.3
5.   Mid Pines                    8.3
7.   Moraine                      8.2
8.   Franklin Hills               8.1
9.   Meadowbrook           7.9
10. Inverness                   7.6
11. Kinglsey                      7.4
11. Flossmoor                  7.4
13. Kirtland                       7.3
13. Greywalls                  7.3
15. Battle Creek                7.2
16. The Golf Club              7.1
16. Old Elm                         7.1
16. Timuquana                    7.1
19. Scioto                            7
20. UofM                              6.9
20. Pine Needles                 6.9
22. Ravisloe                         6.8
22. Indianwood Old             6.8
24. Oakland Hills S               6.7
25. Belvedere                       6.6

Splendid list, thanks for staying on topic

[JC Jones]

2016 List

1.   Old Town (Maxwell)        9.2
 2.   Pinehurst #2 (Ross)       9
 3.   Orchard Lake (Alison)     8.5
 4.   Holston Hills  (Ross)       8.4
 5.   Mid Pines (Ross)             8.2
 6.   Franklin Hills (Ross)        8.1
 7.   Inverness  (Ross)           7.6
 7.   Moraine (Campbell)        7.6
 9.   Kingsley  (DeVries)         7.4
10.  Kirtland                          7.3
11.  Battle Creek (WPJ)        7.2
12.  Old Elm (Colt/Ross)        7.1
12.  Timuquana (Ross)          7.1
14.  Scioto (Ross)                  7
15.  UofM (Maxwell/Mack)      6.9
15.  Pine Needles (Ross)       6.9
17.  Ravisloe (Ross)               6.8
17.  Indianwood Old (Reid)    6.8
19.  Oakland Hills South         6.7
20.  Belvedere (Watson)        6.6
21.  Lookout Mtn (Raynor)      6.5
22.  Naples National               6.4
23.  Dormie (C&C)                   6.3
23.  Diamond Springs(DeVries)6.3
25.  OSU Scarlet (Pre JN)         6.2

I graded harder this year on firmness.  softness was a bigger deduction.

2017 List

1.   Old Town                   9.2
2.   Pinehurst #2             9
3.   Orchard Lake             8.5
4.   Holston Hills               8.4
5.   Brookside (Canton)  8.3
5.   Mid Pines                    8.3
7.   Moraine                      8.2
8.   Franklin Hills               8.1
9.   Meadowbrook           7.9
10. Inverness                   7.6
11. Kinglsey                      7.4
11. Flossmoor                  7.4
13. Kirtland                       7.3
13. Greywalls                  7.3
15. Battle Creek                7.2
16. The Golf Club              7.1
16. Old Elm                         7.1
16. Timuquana                    7.1
19. Scioto                            7
20. UofM                              6.9
20. Pine Needles                 6.9
22. Ravisloe                         6.8
22. Indianwood Old             6.8
24. Oakland Hills S               6.7
25. Belvedere                       6.6

Splendid list, thanks for staying on topic

Which holes did you not like at Old Elm?  Did you play well when you were there?

[BCowan]

Jason,

  With OE, it was more that there wasn't enough great holes.  I loathe the retention/irrig pond on #2.  Like the quirky 3rd which looks improved with pond removal (since I've played) and I like the 18th hole a lot.  I think half the par 5's have weak greens for short par 5's.  I do like the double green however.  I didn't play good and the weather was poor.  I don't play well 80% of the time these days and I usually like courses more when I play worse.  We have a better Colt in Detroit with Bloomfield Hills if it ever gets fully restored.     

[Nigel Islam]

Jason,

  With OE, it was more that there wasn't enough great holes.  I loathe the retention/irrig pond on #2.  Like the quirky 3rd which looks improved with pond removal (since I've played) and I like the 18th hole a lot.  I think half the par 5's have weak greens for short par 5's.  I do like the double green however.  I didn't play good and the weather was poor.  I don't play well 80% of the time these days and I usually like courses more when I play worse.  We have a better Colt in Detroit with Bloomfield Hills if it ever gets fully restored.     

That retention pond is a ways off the fairway. I played Old Elm this year, and thought it was absolutely fabulous. Golf needs many more courses like this. Bunkered moat on a short par 4, double green, bunkers, greens, and fairways intermingling. I was so excited walking down the first just at the presentation of the place.

[Mark Pearce]

There is a stigma amongst men about playing from the Red tees as "Red" in their mind indicates "Ladies".
There is also a stigma about good lady players using further back "Mens" tees.
Time to change the colours? Especially get rid of "red"!
Gold, silver and bronze or something and any player plays from any of them depending on their personal ability?
atb

I like the system used a lot in Scandinavia where the tees are numbered to indicate their length -- the 6800m tees are the '68s', 6000m tees are '60s' etc. Informative and non discriminatory.

Adam


Does each set of blocks actually have the course yardage on it and the yardage of the hole?  This idea is intriguing.


Ciao

I agree. It sounds an excellent idea.

Tees not only have to be made non-gender specific, but to all have the same par and stroke index. Many par 4's for men play as par 5's for Ladies. I find this ridiculous. Move the tee forward so that it plays as a par 4 for anyone who only hits the ball 150 yards max.

I completely disagree with this.  The one time my wife played Crail Craighead she scored well against her 14 handicap.  However, she noted that, for her, from the Ladies tees, the course was a boring driving course because the red tees were sufficiently far forward that most of the fairway hazards were taken out of play.  Many of the par 4s would have been much more interesting driving holes had they been longer par 4s or even par 5s from the Ladies tees.  It's difficult to make holes work well for a range of skills and physical abilities.  If that means some holes are different pars for different golfers but play interestingly for all then that's far better than a uniformity on the scorecard and boredom on the course.

[Michael Graham]

"completely disagree with this. The one time my wife played Crail Craighead she scored well against her 14 handicap. However, she noted that, for her, from the Ladies tees, the course was a boring driving course because the red tees were sufficiently far forward that most of the fairway hazards were taken out of play. Many of the par 4s would have been much more interesting driving holes had they been longer par 4s or even par 5s from the Ladies tees. It's difficult to make holes work well for a range of skills and physical abilities. If that means some holes are different pars for different golfers but play interestingly for all then that's far better than a uniformity on the scorecard and boredom on the course."


Saved you an edit Mark.

[BCowan]

Jason,

  With OE, it was more that there wasn't enough great holes.  I loathe the retention/irrig pond on #2.  Like the quirky 3rd which looks improved with pond removal (since I've played) and I like the 18th hole a lot.  I think half the par 5's have weak greens for short par 5's.  I do like the double green however.  I didn't play good and the weather was poor.  I don't play well 80% of the time these days and I usually like courses more when I play worse.  We have a better Colt in Detroit with Bloomfield Hills if it ever gets fully restored.     

That retention pond is a ways off the fairway. I played Old Elm this year, and thought it was absolutely fabulous. Golf needs many more courses like this. Bunkered most on a short par 4, double green, bunkers, greens, and fairways intermingling. I was so excited walking down the first just at the presentation of the place.

The retention pond is a huge eye soar and reminds us how much water is used now vs when built. There are many 6300 yard courses. There are more quality holes at Ravisloe and Mt Prospect imo.  The bunkers are shaped poorly, toothie.  The shared fairways are nice and I like it, not anywhere near as good as Old Town.  Presentation and maint are over valued on here imo.  Just hand mow all around and have 20 folks a day play and ull get a fine presentation.  Much more impressed with Flossmoor presentation with poa/bent, the firmness, and I'm sure the budget is less then OE.  My buddy who I played with gave it a 6.5 and trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one

[PCCraig]

Jason,

  With OE, it was more that there wasn't enough great holes.  I loathe the retention/irrig pond on #2.  Like the quirky 3rd which looks improved with pond removal (since I've played) and I like the 18th hole a lot.  I think half the par 5's have weak greens for short par 5's.  I do like the double green however.  I didn't play good and the weather was poor.  I don't play well 80% of the time these days and I usually like courses more when I play worse.  We have a better Colt in Detroit with Bloomfield Hills if it ever gets fully restored.     

That retention pond is a ways off the fairway. I played Old Elm this year, and thought it was absolutely fabulous. Golf needs many more courses like this. Bunkered most on a short par 4, double green, bunkers, greens, and fairways intermingling. I was so excited walking down the first just at the presentation of the place.

The retention pond is a huge eye soar and reminds us how much water is used now vs when built. There are many 6300 yard courses. There are more quality holes at Ravisloe and Mt Prospect imo.  The bunkers are shaped poorly, toothie.  The shared fairways are nice and I like it, not anywhere near as good as Old Town.  Presentation and maint are over valued on here imo.  Just hand mow all around and have 20 folks a day play and ull get a fine presentation.  Much more impressed with Flossmoor presentation with poa/bent, the firmness, and I'm sure the budget is less then OE.  My buddy who I played with gave it a 6.5 and trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one

Every time I think I've read the craziest post on GCA, Ben comes out of nowhere and retakes the lead.


"trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one" HA!!!!

[BCowan]

Jason,

  With OE, it was more that there wasn't enough great holes.  I loathe the retention/irrig pond on #2.  Like the quirky 3rd which looks improved with pond removal (since I've played) and I like the 18th hole a lot.  I think half the par 5's have weak greens for short par 5's.  I do like the double green however.  I didn't play good and the weather was poor.  I don't play well 80% of the time these days and I usually like courses more when I play worse.  We have a better Colt in Detroit with Bloomfield Hills if it ever gets fully restored.     

That retention pond is a ways off the fairway. I played Old Elm this year, and thought it was absolutely fabulous. Golf needs many more courses like this. Bunkered most on a short par 4, double green, bunkers, greens, and fairways intermingling. I was so excited walking down the first just at the presentation of the place.

The retention pond is a huge eye soar and reminds us how much water is used now vs when built. There are many 6300 yard courses. There are more quality holes at Ravisloe and Mt Prospect imo.  The bunkers are shaped poorly, toothie.  The shared fairways are nice and I like it, not anywhere near as good as Old Town.  Presentation and maint are over valued on here imo.  Just hand mow all around and have 20 folks a day play and ull get a fine presentation.  Much more impressed with Flossmoor presentation with poa/bent, the firmness, and I'm sure the budget is less then OE.  My buddy who I played with gave it a 6.5 and trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one

Every time I think I've read the craziest post on GCA, Ben comes out of nowhere and retakes the lead.


"trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one" HA!!!!

Carlton Banks,

    You take the lead in the biggest Dbag on this site. 

[PCCraig]

Jason,

  With OE, it was more that there wasn't enough great holes.  I loathe the retention/irrig pond on #2.  Like the quirky 3rd which looks improved with pond removal (since I've played) and I like the 18th hole a lot.  I think half the par 5's have weak greens for short par 5's.  I do like the double green however.  I didn't play good and the weather was poor.  I don't play well 80% of the time these days and I usually like courses more when I play worse.  We have a better Colt in Detroit with Bloomfield Hills if it ever gets fully restored.     

That retention pond is a ways off the fairway. I played Old Elm this year, and thought it was absolutely fabulous. Golf needs many more courses like this. Bunkered most on a short par 4, double green, bunkers, greens, and fairways intermingling. I was so excited walking down the first just at the presentation of the place.

The retention pond is a huge eye soar and reminds us how much water is used now vs when built. There are many 6300 yard courses. There are more quality holes at Ravisloe and Mt Prospect imo.  The bunkers are shaped poorly, toothie.  The shared fairways are nice and I like it, not anywhere near as good as Old Town.  Presentation and maint are over valued on here imo.  Just hand mow all around and have 20 folks a day play and ull get a fine presentation.  Much more impressed with Flossmoor presentation with poa/bent, the firmness, and I'm sure the budget is less then OE.  My buddy who I played with gave it a 6.5 and trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one

Every time I think I've read the craziest post on GCA, Ben comes out of nowhere and retakes the lead.


"trunkslammer gives it a 6 so I'm not the only one" HA!!!!

Carlton Banks,

    You take the lead in the biggest Dbag on this site.

Your opinion means nothing unless trunkslammer agrees...


 

[Duncan Cheslett]

"completely disagree with this. The one time my wife played Crail Craighead she scored well against her 14 handicap. However, she noted that, for her, from the Ladies tees, the course was a boring driving course because the red tees were sufficiently far forward that most of the fairway hazards were taken out of play. Many of the par 4s would have been much more interesting driving holes had they been longer par 4s or even par 5s from the Ladies tees. It's difficult to make holes work well for a range of skills and physical abilities. If that means some holes are different pars for different golfers but play interestingly for all then that's far better than a uniformity on the scorecard and boredom on the course."


Saved you an edit Mark.

A 14 handicap is very low for a lady golfer. She would probably be better served playing from the yellow tees.  The red tees are generally more suited to ageing men or average-to-weak ladies.


There is a huge range of ability among lady golfers. It is ridiculous to expect them all to play from the same tees.


This is why I favour multiple tees with pars and stroke indexes which match up. Then everyone - regardless of gender - can play from the tees which best suit their ability. The handicap system will ensure as far as possible an equal playing field.

[JHoulihan]

I have spent many nights spent reading this list originally started by Jim in 2009. He encouraged me to learn about national courses. I was finally able to meet him this summer. Many years after buying his book and conversing online, finally shaking hands on the porch of what has now become our and many others favorite course.
1 Ballyneal CO
2 Kingsley Club MI
3 Dismal River (Red/Doak) NE
4 Prairie Club (Dunes) NE
5 Black Sheep IL
6 Flossmoor IL
7 Forest Dunes MI
8 Rock Hollow IN
9 Bear Slide IN
10 Trophy Club IN
11 Arcadia Bluffs MI
12 Prairie Club (Pines) NE
13 Thunderhawk IL
14 Wild Horse NE
15 Dismal River (White/Nicklaus) NE
16 Ak Chin Southern Dunes AZ
17 Desert Forest AZ
18 We Ko Pa (Saguaro) AZ
19 Talking Stick (North) AZ
20 The Fort IN
21 Cog Hill (#2) IL
22 Cantigny IL
23 TPC Scottsdale (Champions) AZ
24 Sagamore IN
25 George Dunne IL

Here is my new 25 after a recent visit to WI

1 Ballyneal CO
2 Prairie Club (Dunes) NE *Moved up*
3 Kingsley Club MI
5 Sand Valley (Mammoth Dunes) WI *NEW*
5 Lawsonia (Links) WI *NEW*
6 Dismal River (Red/Doak) NE
7 Black Sheep IL
8 Sand Valley (Sand Valley) WI *NEW*
9 Flossmoor IL
10 Forest Dunes MI
11 Rock Hollow IN
12 Bear Slide IN
13 Trophy Club IN
14 Arcadia Bluffs MI
15 Prairie Club (Pines) NE
16 Thunderhawk IL
17 Desert Forest AZ *Moved up*
18 Wild Horse NE
19 Dismal River (White/Nicklaus) NE
20 Ak Chin Southern Dunes AZ
21 We Ko Pa (Saguaro) AZ
22 Talking Stick (North) AZ
23 The Fort IN
24 Cog Hill (#2) IL
25 Cantigny IL

Justin

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