[DMoriarty]

What is the source of the map?  What is the source of your photo? Was the map from MacWood?

If so, what is your source of those maps, TomM?

Mike, I really don't understand your unwillingness to properly source this stuff. It reeks of the kind of game playing more typical of your mentor.   If the goal is really to figure out what happened then I don't understand your reluctance to be transparent about these things.

You don't really believe you can get any sort of an accurate distance off of that, do you? 

For what it is worth, Campbell's nine hole Franklin course was sometimes referred to as the longest nine hole course in the country. 

[Mike Cirba]

David,

This is neither an academic symposium nor a f:(ing courtroom.

I've already mentioned where this came from...Tom MacWood.

It's a discussion group...if there is something specific you have a question about or feel needs further validation, ask nicely please.

Thanks

[DMoriarty]

I did ask nicely and repeatedly so, but how many times do I have to ask? Sources matter with this stuff.  It is not so difficult to say where you got something, is it?

As for the photograph, I did ask nicely.   Or do you expect me to beg for something that is really just a matter of good practice and common courtesy?

[Mike Cirba]

The photo I found during an unrelated search recently...and because the site limits ability to copy electronically, I printed, scanned, and blew it up.

It was from a usga bulletin I believe, cica 1910 or so.

I can try to find again if there is some point of contention?

[DMoriarty]

No point of contention.   I just wanted to confirm the date so I knew for sure what I was seeing.  Thanks.   

[Mike Cirba]

David,

You're welcome, and your larger point is acknowledged.

[Joe Bausch]

Whaddaya say we all get together for some wings later as a semi-love fest is about to break out.

[Tom MacWood]

I like wings.

[Mike Cirba]

I like wings.

Actually, Joe, in that cooperative spirit...I went looking for both David and Tom at the 19th annual "Wing Bowl" yesterday morning at the Wells Fargo Center in South Philadelphia.

I had heard a rumor that both might be participating as Eaters in the contest, and my interest was especially piqued when I learned that one of the contestatants was nick-named "MacWing", and another had a moniker of "Wingiarty"....

I wasn't that close to the "action", as the following photos demonstrate, but I do know that one of the competitors claimed that there was no way some Phildalphia amateur chefs could make wings "this good...It doesn't make any sense" he was quoted as saying, and was later disqualified for insisting that the professional chefs from Europe be properly attributed,  and the other contestant quit in disgust after trying to get into the private back kitchen to see if he could decipher the recipe for himself and then later saying that his entire unorthodox eating technique was both misunderstood, and misinterpreted, leaving firing a hail of insults at the judges.    

So, who knows?   It's possible they were here and I didn't get to enjoy their company.  

I was mostly looking at the Wingettes.

[Mike Cirba]

Here's my shot at overlaying the 1894 Willie Campbell nine holes over today's course.

I'm curious what the total yardage would be....it looks as though it picks up a lot in the last two holes, which are similar to today's holes 8 and 14 of the Composite Course.

[Mike Cirba]

I'll try to measure this later today. 

I'm surprised to find how many of these early nine holes courses were under 2,500 yards, so I'm curious what this will come out to.

[Joe Bausch]

I'll try to measure this later today. 

I'm surprised to find how many of these early nine holes courses were under 2,500 yards, so I'm curious what this will come out to.

Just measured it myself Michael.  A grand total of 15 1/4".

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the entire 1902 article on Mrs. Willie Campbell, including the pictures.  Use the blue slider bar below to navigate!

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Very funny. 

All,

Not sure if this will help give us a sense of Myopia's original, but here's Campbell's routing of Essex CC as it existed in 1899.

[Mike Cirba]

As close as I can determine from rough estimates using Google Earth, Campbell's nine-hole course for TCC comes in at about 2200 yards.

The last hole is by far the longest, similar to what he did at Franklin Park.   

If nothing else, it would seem to indicate that John P. May's understanding that the original nine hole course at Myopia was 2050 yards was definitely in the ballpark.

Here's the aerial of TCC again;




Estimated yardages are as follows;

1 - 240
2 - 327
3 - 150
4 - 275
5 - 195
6 - 83
7 - 175
8 - 305
9 - 450

Total 2200 yards.

[DMoriarty]

Mike, I wish you were joking here but apparently you aren't.   

You cannot begin to get an accurate measure by looking at a rough stick drawing without features. 

The Essex map lists yardages.   What was the total distance there?   Franklin Park was listed as one of the longest nines in the Country.  What was the yardage there?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Actually, because of the details around the clubhouse with roads, buildings, racetrack, etc.,  all of the holes drawn can very easily be estimated with reasonableness using points of reference against those same structures existing today.

As far as Essex in 1899, five years later, I'm not familiar enough with the evolution of that course to comment but am also not sure how that is relevent as many of these earliest courses were very short initially but quickly sought to expand once the golfers became more proficient, as happened at Myopia and TCC.

In any case, I did say it was estimated but I'd bet I'm within a 10 pct. margin of error of that drawing overall.   If you see anything that looks egregiously drawn on my part or any glaring errors please point them out and I'd be happy to consider your input...

I'm also not sure what your overall beef is here...Tom MacWood has said previously that Willie Campbell did any number of courses in that yardage range.

[DMoriarty]

I have little idea how long TCC was, and I don't care.   My "beef" is with your shoddy methodology.  You have nothing but a stick drawing yet you pretend to tell us how long this course was.   Give us a break already.

Adding a fake margin of error to fake measurements doesn't make the phony measurements any less phony. 

You did the same thing with Myopia, and you had over 500 yards between the tees and greens on a 9 hole course!

Just please quit twisting and stretching everything into something it isn't.   

[Mike Cirba]

David.

What are you talking about?

The idea behind the Myopia exercise wasn't some precision drill...it was merely to admittedly speculate on where thos holes might have been based on what we know from Weeks as well as the names of the holes.

Go get a beer and relax...you're missing a good game.

[DMoriarty]

Your bit with Myopia was to try and prove the course could have been 2050 yards, even though what we know of it makes that extremely unlikely. 

And don't bother telling me what you think I am missing or to relax.  As usual, you have no idea. 

[Mike Cirba]

Ummm...I think I did show that the course could have easily been 2050 yards and even agree with you that it's very possible Weeks was confused about using today's 8th hole at all;  he may have mistaken it with it being the second hole of the Long Nine.   

The reason I don't think they went as far into Hopkins Land as you suggest in your routing is simply from having been there, David...it's the lowest, wettest part of the property and later Leeds had trouble there for years, even devising different footwear for the horses to wear so they wouldn't damage the wet turf so much when pulling mowers.   Or, perhaps they did get into those wet areas which is why they were abandoned in the first place for the Long Nine, but I don't think so....I think they just wanted a bigger golf course and Leeds being a top player would have driven that effort..

I hope you enjoyed the game.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

After seeing the other two Willie Campbell routings, which feature both long walks between some tees and greens on one course, and crossing fw on the other, I am now convinced that we should probably give up on trying to find the original routing.  It was fun for a while, but in the end, none of us really do know.

On the serious side, in the old days, we often had infrared photos of courses flown because they do a better job of showing what might be buried under the ground from the old days.  If Myopia was really interested, that kind of photo might show old foundations, training horse or dog tracks, etc. because it records the difference in soil temps and often shows hidden features, which MIGHT show us what was there.

Just a suggestion, but also one that would be subject to interpretation, as many things could have been buried over the years.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I would agree.

Although we've been told he was a routing master and vastly underrated for his architectural talents, I'm not sure we've seen much evidence of that, frankly and unfortunately, which was my original point on this thread.  

You should see the original nine hole course he designed at Merion...unfortunately there are issues with my posting it here, so I'll send it to you offline.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

You didn't come close to showing the course could have been 2050 yards.   From what we know of the course, the starting point, the first hole, and some approximation of the last four holes, it seems rather unlikely that the course was only 2050. 

And you have never even bothered to try and explain why you think that May would have better, more accurate, and more detailed information that did either the club or Weeks just a few years later.   After all, May supposedly got his information from someone at the club, did he not, a former Master of the Hounds or something?    Were they in cahoots to keep the information from Weeks?   

Mike and Jeff,

Neither of you has seen the "original routing" at either of these courses.  You have seen stick drawings of an approximation of the routings giving a general idea of where the courses were located.    Much like with Mike's attempt at his 2050 courses, it is pretty easy to get the scale wrong on those things and to leave excessive distances between just about all the holes.  For you to rely on these as scale drawings is too much.

Mike, as for your last post where you return to mocking Campbell for being an inferior architect, you again show your true form and biases.     You are doing so based upon stick drawings, for goodness sakes.

Look at he stick drawing you just produced of NGLA.   Looks pretty primitive and simple (as most stick drawings do) so shall we start drawing conclusions about CBM's architectural abilities as well based on the stick drawing alone?  Shall we pretend it is too scale and start drawing all sorts of conclusions about the place?

(Actually you used to try to dismiss CBM as a primitive, dark ages, transition architect with no real experience or abilities when he built NGLA, but now that you've seen the place even you know better than that.  I hope.)

[Mike Cirba]

David,

My analysis of Campbell's routing skills and architecture are based on having been on the property in the case of TCC, the contemporanous descriptions of the number of unsual, unfortunate and artificial hazards incorporated into that routing, and having seen more detailed drawings and photographs of the nine-hole course he built at Merion.  

My lord he was a very important figure in early American golf but clearly not so much in architecture.

How much of his work did Ross keep at Franklin Park, which was probably where he spent his greatest effort?

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