[Peter Ferlicca]

PFerlicca, et al:

I'd be curious to find out how many Doak courses people have played from the list that was provided by PFerlicca? I would not count The Renaissance Club because no one outside Tom's staff have played it to date.

I've played six (6) of the list and would have to really think about the actual rank order -- frankly the issue is the top of the list for me --likely Stone Eagle would grab my bottom position. Lost Dunes would finish in the 5th spot.

Well, first off I just threw that list together real quick last night, not really putting much thought into it.  IMO Pac Dunes, Cape, and Barnbougle are going to be the top three because they are all nationally known fantastic courses, then after that Ballyneal, Lost Dunes, Rock Creek, and Sebonack could go in any order.  And since I am probably the biggest Stone Eagle supporter I would like to see it higher, but realistically it is not a better course than the ones I mentioned above, and though I haven't been to St. Andrews Beach the property just looks amazing and is probably a better course that Stone Eagle.  So I would assume that consists of the top 8 with Stone Eagle at nine and Tumble Creek at 10, but once again I am just throwing this together.  It can be in a completely different order for the person reading this.

[Peter Ferlicca]

mdug,

Duh - what a stupid I am.  Thanks for bringing C & C into the discussion.  

This will be widely unpopular, but Tom Fazio deserves a mention in my book.

Mike

Here you go Mike,

Tom Fazio's Top Ten just to compare  (And, I know we are getting off topic)

1.  Victoria National
2.  Wade Hampton
3.  Shadow Creek
4.  The Quarry at La Quinta
5.  Dallas National GC
6.  Flint Hills National
7.  Galloway National
8.  Hudson National
9.  The Preserve
10.  Sage Valley

And that is leaving out Estancia and Eagle Point

[Richard Choi]

I would give it plenty of love if I ever get a chance to play there

[Sean Leary]

One last thing -- is there something you would cite as an element of Tumble Creek that stands above other elements you have seen when playing a Doak layout.

Great question Matt.  I would have to say for me it is subtle nature of the greens.  What looks like a straight forward putt can really turn into something else.  Plenty of undulation, but not as dramatic as say Ballyneal or Stone Eagle.  I find them baffling to read sometimes and I wonder how much the mountain topography has to do with that.  Everyone I have played with gets 4 or 5 putts a round where they are flat fooled and miss wide left or right.  Fun to watch good players get stumped!    

DD,

Haven't been out there yet this year. Are the conditions still perfect?

[Michael Dugger]

mdug,

Duh - what a stupid I am.  Thanks for bringing C & C into the discussion.  

This will be widely unpopular, but Tom Fazio deserves a mention in my book.

Mike

Here you go Mike,

Tom Fazio's Top Ten just to compare  (And, I know we are getting off topic)

1.  Victoria National
2.  Wade Hampton
3.  Shadow Creek
4.  The Quarry at La Quinta
5.  Dallas National GC
6.  Flint Hills National
7.  Galloway National
8.  Hudson National
9.  The Preserve
10.  Sage Valley

And that is leaving out Estancia and Eagle Point

I fully concur the Faz can hold his head high in a discussio of this sort.....

I'd think both Pronghorn and Black Diamond Ranch deserve mention here....

[Bill_McBride]

mdug,

Duh - what a stupid I am.  Thanks for bringing C & C into the discussion.  

This will be widely unpopular, but Tom Fazio deserves a mention in my book.

Mike

Here you go Mike,

Tom Fazio's Top Ten just to compare  (And, I know we are getting off topic)

1.  Victoria National
2.  Wade Hampton
3.  Shadow Creek
4.  The Quarry at La Quinta
5.  Dallas National GC
6.  Flint Hills National
7.  Galloway National
8.  Hudson National
9.  The Preserve
10.  Sage Valley

And that is leaving out Estancia and Eagle Point

I fully concur the Faz can hold his head high in a discussio of this sort.....

I'd think both Pronghorn and Black Diamond Ranch deserve mention here....

What's that course in Arkansas?  ALOTIAN, THANKS MATT!

And Fallen Oak in Biloxi is apparently very good, haven't seen it yet.

[Patrick Schultheis]

Tumble Creek gets the ultimate love from me --- plenty of my $$$

Sean - conditions are the typical perfect at TC right now.  Don't leave 9 and 18 out of the equation --- I prefer both of them to 11. 

TC has liberalized its guest policies somewhat this year --- which is just fine by this member.

I haven't played a few of the Doak courses mentioned.  I love Stone Eagle, but prefer TC --- certainly as a day-to-day course, because it is more easily walkable.

Daryl - the beauty of your proposed TC/Aldarra doubleheader is the difference between the two courses.  I love them both, but they are completely different.  (I'll play Aldarra tomorrow and TC Sunday/Monday.)

The OT list of Fazio courses should, IMHO, include Aldarra.

[Matt_Ward]

Any top ten TF list will need to include Glenwild in UT and the Alotian in Arkansas -- the former I have played -- the latter has drawn rave reviews by those fortunate souls who have played it.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:

In my poll of my associates last year, Tumble Creek finished 10th of the 25 Renaissance courses that we rated ... which is not bad when you consider the rest of our top ten.  I bet you would really like it, although you (like Sean) might not rate the flatter holes at the bottom (14-17) as highly as the rest.

Was that a secret ballot?   

[Daryl David]

One last thing -- is there something you would cite as an element of Tumble Creek that stands above other elements you have seen when playing a Doak layout.

Great question Matt.  I would have to say for me it is subtle nature of the greens.  What looks like a straight forward putt can really turn into something else.  Plenty of undulation, but not as dramatic as say Ballyneal or Stone Eagle.  I find them baffling to read sometimes and I wonder how much the mountain topography has to do with that.  Everyone I have played with gets 4 or 5 putts a round where they are flat fooled and miss wide left or right.  Fun to watch good players get stumped!    

Haven't been out there yet this year. Are the conditions still perfect?

Sean,

Absolutely perfect.  Greens smooth and even a little quick.  Only nit is that we played early and it was a little damp from overnight irrigation.  Once the wind kicked up and dried it out a little, then the ball was rolling fine.
DD

[Tom_Doak]

One thing that gets little press regarding Tumble Creek is that it often gets pretty windy in the afternoons, which wreaks havoc on holes 9-13.

[George Pazin]

I'll fight any man that doesn't rate Barnbougle #1!!!

And I haven't even been there!!

One of the most interesting posts I ever recall Tom D making was in regard to his Riverfront course. He said it was the same course as Pac Dunes, yet nowhere near as highly regarded (paraphrasing). I suspect there is much to be learned from that statement.

[Tom_Doak]

George:

I don't know if you can find that post, but I think all I would have said was that the greens and bunkers are just as good at Riverfront as Pacific Dunes.  The God-given undulations in between are not the same, and neither is the development plan.  But that just goes to show how important the latter factors are in most people's judgment.

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