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Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 08:07:37 AM »
Craig, You said:  " Personally, from what I have read, the course is not that great, it is has been altered to the point that it no longer resembles the architect's original design, it's losing money, it has two Federal Endangered species living there, and there is a strong desire to return it to what it was before it was drained and dredged for golf....evolution baby."

      Using this approach and logic environmentalists will be able to close golf courses all over the country.  This is a huge presisdent.  I have nesting boxes for E. Bluebirds on my golf course. We put them there.  What if these birds hit the indangered species list some day?  Do we close the golf course?   Environmentalist are not Conservationists. 

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2009, 09:57:22 AM »
Sean...good for you putting up those bluebird boxes!  It's that sort of effort that will keep them off the endangered species list.

Look, Sharp Park is a public park....and the public will determine its use.  What has happened to the number of rounds played over the last 10 years?  Where is city park maintenance money going?  (in my community, about 15 years ago a huge chunk of parks money was shifted to maintaining the urban forest...street trees...and playing fields suffered greatly...the city is still playing catch up repairing old irrigation in parks)

I think you are getting a bit hysterical here...it's a public park and the public "thought" (what's important, what are priorities) evolves....it sounds as if the public would rather see a different use for Sharp Park....
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2009, 11:08:36 AM »
Craig, I really do appreciate your opinion on this and if you can assure me that this will be a local issue only I will agree that it should be up to the local folk to figure out.  I am not sure it's that simple when you have Palosey throwing Stimulus money into the mix.   Call me hysterical if you like but I think that this case will be used as a model in other parts of the country.  This is just another way to attack golf and  the environmental agenda is not one based on compromise.  Take a look at who is running the EPA these days, read some of her opinions and then tell me I'm hysterical.  Do you think the masses will ever see pictures in the "Main stream media" of Obama playing golf? 

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2009, 01:19:54 PM »
WTF?????

I was timed out while typing a lengthy reply to Sean...

I won't bother trying to recreate it...

LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2009, 01:20:36 PM »
Sean..I think the "main stream media" has already posted video and photo's of Obama golfing....but the main stream media is essentially owned by six or eight multi-national corporations, and very wealthy individuals....so I never expect too much from them....how much time did they spend covering that large coal ash flood (in Tennessee?) and there's many more coal ash sites just like the one that failed. Of course GE owns NBC and CNBC and I suspect they have an interest in coal energy...

But I digress..I have never heard of any such environmental agenda specifically aimed at golf....I do think when issues arise that they are "local" and not part of some nationwide master plan to eliminate golf.  And that is why I said in an earlier post, aren't we all environmentalist....really Sean, if a developer wanted to site an incinerator upwind from where you live, would you not be against it?

 I do know that there's a lot of misinformation out there about golf courses and their environmental impacts...and I believe it's up to the industry to be proactive in promoting fewer inputs, better water management, etc....perhaps Sharp Park presents such an opportunity?

Where are the golfers in this debate? How many rounds are played here each year?  How much are the golfers willing to pay to co-exist? 

The stimulus money issue I thought was a myth...that someone raised this issue to embarrass Pelosi and that she has never "earmarked" money for this project.....besides...the so called shovel ready projects, and the priorities for spending stimulus money is a state/local issue....

LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2009, 01:34:29 PM »
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2009, 01:52:50 PM »
This is part of the reason why California is going bankrupt and is taking the rest of the country with it.  Unbelievable left wing NUTS... 

I guess you don't live here.

Do you know what happened 158 years ago this fall... back in 1850?

 

California  became a state
              The people had no electricity.
             The state had no money.
          Almost everyone spoke Spanish.
        There were gunfights in the streets.

So basically nothing has changed except

the women had real breasts

and the men didn't hold hands.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2009, 02:26:57 PM »
California is going bankrupt because 30 years ago they passed Prop 13 and a few other anti-tax/anti government initiatives that pretty much handcuff government (that would be you and me) from doing what they need to do...

Most states get their revenue from three sources in roughly equal thirds...income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes....in California 55% of revenue is income tax...if the economy is going good, revenue is pretty good...when the economy is going in the tank, revenue is in the tank....
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2009, 02:32:26 PM »
California is going bankrupt because 30 years ago they passed Prop 13 and a few other anti-tax/anti government initiatives that pretty much handcuff government (that would be you and me) from doing what they need to do...

Most states get their revenue from three sources in roughly equal thirds...income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes....in California 55% of revenue is income tax...if the economy is going good, revenue is pretty good...when the economy is going in the tank, revenue is in the tank....

Craig,

This is the laugher post of the year. As one who was born and raised in California and having spent most of my life living there....it is the bright shining example of how not to run a socialist state.  They waste so much money on liberal studies, programs, etc its not even funny.  And now they are paying the piper.

For the record...Cali does all 3 of those taxes, income, property, and sales...and all at very high rates, yet they still don't know how to manage it all. Other states are suffering too, but because theyi have been more responsible with thier money they aren't in near as deep shit as Cali.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2009, 03:04:00 PM »
For the "record" Kalen property tax increases are controled by Prop 13...and income taxes are about 55% of government revenue. Please find me another state that relies on 55% of their revenue coming from the income tax.

Did you have a problem with California providing virtually free college tuition back in the decades before Reagan?  How much of California's growth from 1955-1980 can be attributed to an educated work force?

What I find laughable is this conservative argument that it is governments fault when something goes wrong...as Ronald Reagan was fond of saying the nine most frightening words are "I from the government and I'm here to help".....I guess he FORGOT who exactly government is....and I guess he forgot that he was elected leader of that government as he implemented his own "stimulus plan" of record deficits spending.

Our system is less than ideal Kalen, but it still boils down to government is the people...and ultimately (like turning the Titanic) it does represent the wishes of the people....what is happening in California represents the will of the people....they want services, they don't want taxes, they passed legislation to slow the increase in property taxes and approved increases in sales and income taxes to make up the differences...they passed legislation that requires a 63% majority to pass a budget or raise taxes...
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Gib_Papazian

Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2009, 02:29:03 AM »
As a Californian who wrote articles for YEARS about golf and environmental issues, the root of the problem is simply that our state is being run by a group of mentally disturbed, totalitarian, ethically vacant perverts with the foresight of an adolescent and the fiscal judgment of a junkie with the shakes.

Our court system is out of control. Attorneys are allowed to run absolutely wild, essentially litigating the other side into bankruptcy through a war of attrition to achieve whatever the agenda du jour. Nobody in this insane asylum exercises a micron of common sense because every single environmental issue is treated like a death penalty case.

Craig, no offense, but you need to be here and watch this obscene circus in action before you pop off about Sharp Park. I spent days sitting through PUC meetings about another city-owned golf facility, watching a group of pompous buffoons who could not even formulate an intelligent question on the subject of land use, let alone make a decision in the best interest of the public.

Remember, this is a state where a nutcake was recently allowed to monopolize a Federal Court with a lawsuit alleging fraud (and asking for class action suit damages) for failing to disclose that the "Crunchberries" in Captain Crunch cereal are not real fruit. That is why the 9th Circuit is the single most overturned court in America. The Golden State is an idiot magnet.

Every lawyer knows that California is the land of opportunity for sleazebags. Anybody can sue anybody for anything at any time for any reason and not only is there no penalty for vexatious litigation or perjury, but the State Bar can't even police itself, let alone 215,000 lawyers. So, anytime a special interest environmental group wants to stop construction or jam their agenda down everybody's throats, all they have to do is obtain a preliminary injunction and bleed the opposition to death with legal fees. These games go on for YEARS.

Sharp Park has been there since the Herbert Hoover administration and if golf was going to kill any frogs or snakes, it would have have happened a long time ago. But it always starts with a specious interpretation of the law or a seemingly innocuous initiative. The standard bearers of the march against rational land use invariably have names like "The Committee for Green Foothills," which is just a fig leaf to obscure their relentless objectives. These dogma infested loons are armed with an inexhaustible supply of money and the patience of Job.

They pick at things incrementally, slowly turning up the heat until they get a foothold. By then, it is too late. Witness the astonishing erosion of our civil liberties in this nation. The environuts on the left do not play fair - they will buy off or bury anybody in their path if given the chance. Have a look at the San Francisco Watershed for "Exhibit A."

With my own eyes and ears I watched a well funded group of Woodside horsey horsey millionaires - led by a billionaire who did not want golf near his private estate (adjacent to the watershed) - close off 10,000 acres in violation of an iron clad recreational easement with San Mateo County. They got away with it because the groups wanting to use 160 acres of 10,000 for a golf course behaved like reasonable citizens and tried to engage in "constructive dialogue."  

What *really* happened is that a bunch of public golfers got jacked off by that puke Willie Brown and the aforementioned big dog wrote a fat check for an "environmental center" that never got built. Beware the term "EIR," it is a euphemism for a giant penis the Sierra Club lawyers are intent upon jamming in your ear.

The only way to deal with these kind of litigious terrorists is to show up in force and make it so wildly unpleasant on the politicos that they do not dare incite the wrath of the people. "Meet and confers" are a waste of time. These wackos only understand leverage points, sickles and torches. "Offers of Compromise" are interpreted as a sign of weakness.

Klingons do not play by Marquess of Queensbury rules and should be treated a such.      

 

    

          

        
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 08:20:46 AM by Gib Papazian »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2009, 06:40:37 AM »
Gib...you know what Bob Dylan said..."money doesn't talk, it swears"....
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Gib_Papazian

Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2009, 01:59:33 PM »
"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen."
-George Orwell.

None of this rubbish has a damned thing to do with the so-called "will of the people." It is the *full employment act* for attorneys. Think about it for a moment. The permitting process is really just a government assisted tariff where a group of "no growth" bananas (build absolutely nothing anywhere) masquerading as environmentalists use lawyers to erect a series of legal roadblocks.

The "buy in" is little more than a financial and emotional treadmill controlled by lunatic totalitarians who turn the dials faster and faster until the vast majority of those trying to achieve some progress eventually fall on the floor. Why do you think that so many projects start with one visionary who eventually gets bankrupted by the process, only to be snapped up for pennies on the dollar and "finished" by the waiting vultures?

What do you need to navigate the minefield laid by the activists (in collusion with the cowards in public office)? Ah, yes! Another lawyer. This is not a rant against the legal profession because there are always two sides to every disagreement. However, the problem is that common sense and rational decisions are almost invariably trumped by the "Three H's": hysteria, hyperbole and horseshit.

 

     

Derek Dirksen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2009, 02:55:36 PM »
This is part of the reason why California is going bankrupt and is taking the rest of the country with it.  Unbelievable left wing NUTS...

I guess you don't live here.

Do you know what happened 158 years ago this fall... back in 1850?

 

California  became a state
              The people had no electricity.
             The state had no money.
          Almost everyone spoke Spanish.
        There were gunfights in the streets.

So basically nothing has changed except

the women had real breasts

and the men didn't hold hands.





I actually have lived and worked in Cali on several projects a couple of different times and it was a nightmare.  I didn't mind the fake breasts but you can have the hand holding  ;) 


Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2009, 09:13:44 PM »
Has anyone heard anything about the previously proposed changes to Lincoln Park (e.g making the 17th Hole into an ampitheater) and turning the course into a 9 holer with the other holes being soccer fields, etc...?

What a one two punch to SF muni golf the loss of Lincoln and/or Sharp Park would be...where else is the average working person (who can only play on the weekends) supposed to go?

How is the average San Franciscan making the average household income of $70,000/yr and paying the 2nd highest rents in the country supposed to play weekend golf at $60 a clip at the other muni Harding (with resident card) or the other public 18 holer in the city for $86 at Presidio?

Versus $24 to play Sharp Park on Sat/Sun w/ residents card?







Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2009, 05:45:43 AM »
  Don't mean to be alarmist but if this environmental playbook works in S.F. it will then be used everywhere.  This may be a dumb question but why are muni. courses held to the standard of profitability?  I don't see baseball, soccer and tennis courts being held to the same standard and I don't think those are used by more members of the community.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2009, 06:13:02 AM »
Sean...the Endangered Species Act is a Federal law...San Francisco has been told by the Feds to do something about managing these two endangered species at Sharp Park or face fines up to $25,000 for each dead frog/snake....it appears they have worked out a possible solution involving some new holes and routing around the fresh water flood areas where the frogs and snakes live.

So, though you don't want to sound like an alarmist, that is exactly how you sound...
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2009, 10:04:29 AM »
Craig - You're making my point for me.  Who controls what species are listed on the ESA?  They will just keep finding ways to use regulations to create a moral equivalency between humans and animals. There are far more new species of plants and animals discovered each year than become extinct.  Do you ever hear about that? The only reason these frogs and snakes mean anything to anyone is due to politics and environmental agendas.  If you want this kind of agenda to succeed that it is fine with me but I'd rather not see my childrens standard of living be lower than mine due to the radical moraltiy of the environmental left.  The depate about this little golf course in S.F. is the same debate we should be having about Cap & Trade.  How many wind turbines are you willing to have built in your community just so Al Gore can get rich off of the carbon commodaty market? Is there any room for common sense and debate or is the debate over?

Gib_Papazian

Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2009, 10:05:38 AM »
Craig,

You don't think that a 25K fine for each dead snake or frog is a cause for alarm - especially in these economic times? That is insanity by any measuring stick and just another egregious example of strong-arm tactics by smug Beltway totalitarians. Since the Fed is handing money out like drunken sailors (read: buying votes), how about sending some stimulus money for our mismanaged golf courses instead of using tax dollars to bail out a bunch of feckless idiots in Detroit?

 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2009, 02:01:31 PM »
Gib,

One of the great things about our founders' federalism was that states such as CA, NY, NJ, MI, etc. could do as much experimentation as their populations desired to arrive at a form of community that worked for them.  What has happened since FDR with only minor corrections for one relatively brief time (Reagan), is the imposition of a federal standard which is reflective of CA's political evolution.  The current administration with its radical environmental agenda, energy policy, socialized healthcare, and collectivized labor relations connected at the hip to crony capitalism simply Californicates the rest of the country in the short run.

This may actually be a good thing for the highest tax/highest cost-of-living states.  Job growth in Texas in 2008 surpassed that of all other 49 states, COMBINED.  With the current energy bill in Congress, no state will be penalized more.  Add the federal VAT currently being discussed, the deductability of state taxes from federal tax liability (high growth states like TX, WA, FL have none), and the "playing field" is being leveled.  Since people don't come to TX because of its fine weather or outstanding natural beauty, maybe your (CA's) producers will stay put.  Limit the alternatives that free people have and CA may benefit at the expense of the rest.

As the Dos Pueblos fiasco clearly demonstrated, it is not about three frogs- indigenous or planted, but about the visions of the self-anointed prevailing at the expense of jobs, lives, and anything else that may get in the way.  It is about the narcissism to impose one's will to the detriment of others.

The unfortunate thing is that smart, witty, articulate people like you are too busy making a living and taking care of your family to oppose these folks whose raison d'etre is their self-importance, their need to be special, to "make a difference".  As we have seen throughout history, and not more so than today, religious zealots will commit any atrocity in the name of their faith.  Radical environmentalism is a religion and its devotees will not play by the rules of common, civilized folks.  To some, Mother Earth is obscenely over-populated by humans, and losing 4.5 billion or so is not only no real loss, but highly desirable.  Someone else can compute the human to frog equivalence factor.      

  

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2009, 02:08:37 PM »
1. There are far more new species of plants and animals discovered each year than become extinct. 

2. The only reason these frogs and snakes mean anything to anyone is due to politics and environmental agendas. 

3. . . . .I'd rather not see my childrens standard of living be lower than mine due to the radical moraltiy of the environmental left.   

4.  Is there any room for common sense and debate or is the debate over?

1.  So, we should allow the balance of discovery and annihilation to be zero?  That would justify our indifference?  Just because we discover something, it doesn't lessen the fact that we are losing something irreplaceable. Our inventory of a frog is not the value of the frog.  

2.  Some people like snakes and frogs because they see the big picture. Usually children.

3.  What if they want to become environmentalists and make a living in those varied fields? Some people define a higher standard of living that is not governed by monetary intake and materialism.

4.  It will forever be debated. As long as there's money, power and status to be gained by whatever resource we can use, and someone who doesn't like what they're seeing exploited, there will be a fight.  Personally, I think it's fascinating but it does become a dull battle when groups fight litigiously  with righteousness and rights on either side.  

 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2009, 04:30:18 PM »
Sean and Lou...all I can say is wow!  You certainly have an interesting view of the world ,man, and his...ahem...domain.

LOCK HIM UP!!!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2009, 04:32:45 PM »
Sean and Lou...all I can say is wow!  You certainly have an interesting view of the world ,man, and his...ahem...domain.



Craig,

Thier view is reality, and the way the world is...its time to take off the rosy glasses that your lefty tree-hugger friends always insist you wear!!   ;D

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2009, 11:32:42 PM »

 . . . Thier view is reality, and the way the world is...

 I don't know if you were facetiously streaming the character of Dennis Hopper from Apocolypse, Now!, but that reality is an anthropomorphic  ideal of radial value focus. 

"All the truth in the world adds up to one big lie."  Bob Dylan
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Saving the Red-Legged Frog at Sharp Park
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2009, 02:26:33 PM »
  Any news on Sharp Park?  I did a Goog News search and only found that the Parks and Rec were late on their plan deadline.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

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