[Mike_DeVries]

I am just curious, what is the exact square footage of the 15th green?  It looks small, but fun to play!

Brendan

Brendan,

The 15th green is about 3700 sq. ft. -- smallest on the course, although 8 others (#2, 6,8,9,11,12,14, & 18) are from 4000-5000 sq. ft.  The average green size is 6000, due to the 3 large greens -- #3 @ 10,500, #4 @ 12,300, and #13 @ 12,400.

Mike

[Tim Bert]

Man - the sprinklers running on #15 in those pictures just destroys the whole vibe for me...  Those should be taken down from the web site!!   

#16 coming soon.

[Tim Bert]

#16 is a par 3

225 from the gold tee
175 from the blue tee

Kingsley is full of fun, interesting, and sometimes confounding par 3s.  #16 is my favorite of the bunch.  It begins winding down my favorite stretch of holes on the course, which began with #12 (I can't decide if #17 gets included in this group or not - it is something to behold for certain but my feelings about it aren't as strong as the preceding holes.)

The transition from the 15th is a cool one.  The tee for this hole is up above and behind the 15th green.  From the tips, the tee shot is played somewhat over the green complex, though I don't really recall it being directly over the green itself.  There are several bunkers in place between the tee and the green, but only one or two should ever come into play for most golfers.

From the tips, a low runner well right of the target works rather well.  Mike teed his ball up on this hole and hit his shot well right of the green.  It was far enough right that I recall thinking he must have really pushed it out there to the right.  He seemed pleased enough with himself despite what appeared to be a lackluster effort.  Well, we all learned the lesson of "architect knows best" as we watched his ball land well right, bounce and roll to the left, disappear from view behind a small mound, reappear on the green, and trickle left until it settled rather nicely on the green not too far from the pin.

Mike's approximate line is highlighted in green.  His ball ended up just beyond the pin.  Balls struck at or to the left of the red line that land just in front of the green or on the front of the green will end up well short and left of the green in the red highlighted area.



Once we approached the green, the fun continued...  I had left my ball down in the area short and left of the green, very near the bunker on the left of the green.  I could get cute with the false front if I wanted, I could hit the ball safely beyond the pin and take my chances with a lengthy par putt... or, as I decided, I could "be like Mike."  I chose to hit the chip shot intentionally right of the green to the same pocket Mike's tee shot found.  The ball faithfully funneled back to the green and gave me a nice par putt (which I then missed!)

The green arrow indicates where I hit my second shot from.  The green circle indicates my landing area.



The final fun happened when Alan lined up his putt (don't recall the exact length, but it was inside 20 feet.)  Alan had taken a similar approach to Mike off the tee and was rewarded with a shot at birdie.  He hit a really nice looking putt that trickled a bit longer than intended.  The ball rolled a couple feet past the hole and came to what I would have sworn was going to be a complete halt when Mike offered up this gem - "Sorry!"  The ball took a half-turn, then another, one more, and then it was off to the races.  Alan ended up where you see him in the photo below... Mike is still all smiles from the result of the evil pin location.



More photos -

From the tee


From a lower elevated tee


Looking up at 16 from the 15th fairway


A look at the green from the back right.  The left side of the photo shows the funnel that Mike used to filter his ball in close.


A picture of the 16th green with the tiny 15th green in the background
 
   

[John Mayhugh]

What an awesome modern redan.  It's probably my favorite hole on the course.  I think given the right trajectory and curve on the ball, one could go well right of Mike's line shown in Tim's photo and still get on the green.  Of course, fail to pull off that low draw and you are confronted with quite the challenge. 

Believe it or not, the right cluster of trees could also come into play if you're trying for the draw and get a push instead. 

No way to adequately describe the fun of watching your ball move along the ground here. 

[David Neveux]

Mike,

Is that a Michigan State Green Spartan hat your wearing in that picture? 

 

NEV

[John Kirk]

Although I usually make the safe play, which is a draw aimed well right of the green, I think the best play, for those who dare, is a straight or faded shot that starts at the flag.  There's a bit too much uncertainty on how much roll you will get tumbling down the hill from the right.  You can roll them right across the green if you aren't careful.

[Tim Bert]

John M

Looking at my marked up photo again I think Mike's ball may well have been right of the marker I placed. I remember thinking he was dangerously close to the trees on his line.

[Brian_Sleeman]

Agreed, John - a shot up the right side works well but you've got to pick an appropriate spot on the hill to generate just the right speed onto the green.  Too far up the hill and it can either stay there or run all the way across the green.  A soft cut into the right side of the green works well, but you'd better be accurate in every sense of the word to pull it off.

This plays a lot like the approach to #2 on Greywalls (there of course the slope is left of the green) - too far up the hill left of the green and it'll run all the way to the bottom tier.  If the pin's on the left side of that green, hit it right at the left fringe and it'll hit softly and trickle down just a bit.  Recovery shots around the green are an absolute blast there and at #16 at Kingsley when you find a creative way to use the backboard.

More examples of the extreme fun to be had at any of Mike's tracks.

[Eric Smith]

I had a good laugh Tim seeing your pics of 16 (great as always), then reading about how to play the hole made me laugh even harder (at myself of course!).

Let me show you where my second shot was played from.  May I borrow your pic for effect?



Chunked my 7 iron, leaving an awful lie in the sand, ball below my feet, foursome approaching the 15th green behind me, pure humiliation. 

Trudged up the left side.  Double.

[Joe Hancock]

Eric,

Nice shot. You are miles ahead of most as far as strategy.

Another brilliant par 5 from Mike.......

Joe

[Eric Smith]

See -- Golf IS FUN!
 

[Buck Wolter]

This one's a little late but shows the tree clearing between 14 & 15


Looking back from green to tee on 16







I really like the way 16 and 17 meld together with the fairway cut right up to the tee boxes

[Adam Clayman]

The transition from 15 to 16 (and seeing 17 beyond) is one of golf's coolest feelings. Up there with the tree tunnel after CPC's 15th. Not sure if it's the intimacy or the feeling you get when you see the terrain of the 16th green and 17 tee, but the setting is quite special. The golf is like the best hot fudge, or icing, one can find.

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike,

Is that a Michigan State Green Spartan hat your wearing in that picture? 

 

NEV

Pretty sure that is a Kingsley hat (although I do own a Spartan hat!).  Hope the boys do well in the tourney and make the Final Four -- that would be a big home-field advantage in Detroit!

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike's approximate line is highlighted in green.  His ball ended up just beyond the pin.  Balls struck at or to the left of the red line that land just in front of the green or on the front of the green will end up well short and left of the green in the red highlighted area.

Tim,

I am pretty sure it was further right than your green line.  I usually shoot for the cherry tree/bench on the hill, depending on the speed I want to attack it with and where the pin is located.  The hump in front of the green, the peak of it is just to the right of the red line, will really move a ball to the left if you miss the slot right of where the green line is.  If you don't carry enough speed and are short of the green, then the hump affects the approach shot as well.  The really difficult pin is just beyond the hump in the front -- very hard to stop it there.

The cut/fade into this green is a very good option for those that can play that shot consistently, but frequently the wind is coming at you and quartering from the right, so pretty tough to execute on a regular basis, at least for a low-ball runner type of player like me . . . 

This hole had about 25% of the dirt work on the course.  The green was actually in a steep valley/ravine that came off of the cart turnaround for #17 tee.  The fairway was a large roll and we cut down the fairway, pushing all the sand into the valley and building the green from that material.  We took about 200-300 yards down to #15 green to build the front of that.  These two greens are the most manipulated / created greensites on the course, with 15 standing out as such and 16 feeling more natural.  Both work really well and create some wonderful golf.

Cheers,
Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Tim, thanks again for this great thread.  I appreciate your time and effort.  About the time I think I should cancel on the trip this summer for economic reasons you post another hole and my resolve go to is restored.

Bogey

[John Mayhugh]

What a great hole!  There are so many options around the green.  I tugged my tee shot into the left bunker.  The pin was middle/back center.  Just to see if I could do it, I purposely hit the bunker shot all the way over the green up into that banked, back right short cut ... waited.... and watched the ball do a 360 and trickle back to a foot or two from the pin - one of the coolest shots I've hit in years, all thanks to Mike DeVries and one hell of a green design!

Loved it, loved it, loved it! 

If I had any sort of control over my bunker shots, I would love to try this one!

[George Freeman]

As has been mentioned, I believe by Adam C., this little pocket of the Kingsley club is really special.  Standing on the 16th tee brings I think the best view on the back nine, especially in the evening, as you look out over the entire complex that includes the 15th green, the entire 16th, and the teeing ground for the 17th.  The bunkering, the large expanse of short grass, the trees, and the gentle slope of this spot create one of golf's great "secret gardens". 

The shot played by Mike D., as explained by Tim, must be something spectacular to witness.  I've visualized that shot many a time, although unfortunatley I have never seen it done.  My game works a lot better with the other shot that has been mentioned to work well here:  I high fade, and I've actually been pretty successful with the shot in my rounds at Kingsley.

This green can be pretty tricky.  As Tim mentioned (or was it Mike?), putting off the green or failing to find the green with a chip in close proximity seems to be fairly common place.  If you're unfortunate enough to have your ball hang up above the hole on the right in the short grass, the VERY difficult task of mearly keeping the ball on the green with your next shot lies ahead of you. 

As with most at KC, this green complex has a plethora of options a golfer can use to get the ball near the hole from various positions (see Dave S's bunker post).

Pics from the website:







The expanse of short grass around the green:






This shot gives you an idea of the slope coming in from the right



 

[Brad Fleischer]

I hope we didn't forget to finish this great thread !

[Tim Bert]

Coming soon.  Given the other heated threads going on right now, I planned to wait until Kingsley made the Golf Digest top 100... 

but I guess I'll go ahead and finish.

[Brad Fleischer]

lol lol. Hey at least it's in good company , I heard some course named bally somin didn't make it either.

Looking forward to it .

[Tim Bert]

Hole #17 is a par 5
522 from the gold tee
476 from the blue tee

I can only imagine playing this course, not knowing anything about this hole, and walking up the fairway for the first time.  It must be shocking for those that don't know what looms ahead.  Even having seen pictures and having a decent sense for what awaited, I was blown away by the scale of the hole.  We've talked about scale and proportion quite a bit throughout this thread, but this one must be seen in order to believe it.  The immense 1st hole feels "small" in scale when compared to the 17th.

I'll leave it to Mike to comment on the actual dimensions, but I'll speculate with the following estimates - the fairway must be over 100 yards wide with the new clearing, the elevation change must be at least 50 - 75 feet, and the % grade at which the decline occurs is quite likely more severe than anything you've seen in a par 5 fairway.  Think roller coaster - not like we casually throw the term around, but in the sense of a real roller coaster.

The tee shot encourages the golfer to swing free, but there is trouble to be found in the form of bunkers short and right on the fairway and also in the form of bunkers that guard what used to be the left side of the fairway but now sit squarely in the center of the widened fairway.  From the tee, all the golfer can see is the end of elevated portion of the fairway and then some trees much further in the distance.   The fairway appears to end in mid-air.  For the big hitter, the drop-off is reachable from the blue tees, and for the bomber I am sure the cliff comes into play from the tips as well.  For me, the mega-boost is out of play from the tips, and MIGHT come into play on my best drive out of 10 from the blue tees.

The fairway then drops rather quickly into a valley.  I suspect many course designers would have used this elevation change to create the obligatory drop-shot par 3.  As you run down the fairway (or roll down like a child if you so choose) and then look back up to the top of thse hill, you can't help but be pleased to find something so different spread across this glorious terrain.  The fairway then swings back uphill (though not to the same elevation) to the green site.

The path to the green bottlenecks around 50 yards out.  A bunker awaits on the left side well short of the green to capture stray attempts at making a run for the green in two.  For those laying just short of this bunker, the half-wedge approach becomes a severely uphill shot to somewhat of a skyline green depending upon the position of your approach.  There is also a series of greenside bunkers on the right and one in the back right requiring precision from any location.  The green, like so many others on the course is interesting with plenty of good pin locations available.

From the tee


A closer view from the tee.  The fairway in view here is the "original" fairway.  The fairway now extends about an equal amount left of the bunkers pictured at the left edge of this photo.


A view of the fairway from the top of the hill


A view of the green and surrounds from above


Looking back up the fairway from down below


A closer view of the bunkers and green complex


The angle where the green nearly transforms to a skyline (except for a few trees...)  The half-wedge approach is mostly blind.


Looking back at this massive hole from the green


One more from the rough behind the hole


 

[Mike_DeVries]

Tim,

Thanks for this great thread -- what a great discussion of the course and I really appreciate hearing all the comments.   

As to the width of the fairway, I believe the new expanded 17th is about 65-70 yards wide at its widest, whereas the first's maintained cut is 110 yards wide with the bunkers in the middle of the drive.  Maybe the 17th "feels" wider due to the relative narrowness of holes 15 and 16?  The fairway on the 14th is 80 yards wide at the landing area over the bunkers and the maintained turf on hole 13 is 80 yards wide, with the fairway cut about 65 yards.

I think the drop in elevation from the landing area ridge down to the bottom of the valley is about 65 feet.  (I am on the road and don't have a topo to check the data.)

Best,
Mike

[Tim Bert]

I am really surprised to hear that #17 is really that much more "narrow" than #1.  I'm not sure how, but I wonder if the fact that the left half wasn't quite mown down to fairway length distorted the view.  I would have bet money it was wider than you said, so thanks for saving me some cash!

[David Neveux]

Tim,

sadly I have missed both Fairways a number of times.  I actually have to construction pictures I feel some might really enjoy will post tomm. with a couple of old pictures of 17, it's amazing to really see the scale of the change first hand. 

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