[Mike_DeVries]

This has GCA get-together written all over it, IMHO.

Terry,
When should we do it?  I know the GCA crowd has a crowded schedule, but I would love to get together and hear the thoughts in person -- would be great fun to walk around with the hickories and/or short clubs and see the different variations people would try!

What does everyone think?
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Course looks great. What is the idea behind the trees in the middle of the bunkers, or is the reverse It is difficult to say but looking at the pictures posted by Tim and those from the club website it looks as though they have planted some silver birches recently.

Jon,
The paper birches were there originally and the idea was to build the bunkers around them and let them evolve together -- really more of a dune formation than individual bunkers as the cluster and landforms on either side of the approach work more together than as a single hazard.
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Hi All,
Sorry for the delay in response about #6, but here goes. . .

I find this the most difficult drive on the course, as the comfortable carry distance from the back tee is 220+ to carry the second hump and use the big R to L slope to feed the ball down into the flat for a short iron in.  The newer blue tee in front of the back tees makes this quite a bit more doable, as it is 30-35 yards shorter.  The original blue tee was set with the tee boxes on #2, which is a much different look, more inviting and just slightly shorter at 350 yards than the current 360 blue tee.  For events, it is much easier to move people around with the new blue tee and it has been well-received.  I really like the open feel and clear look at the banked fairway from #2 or the forward tees on #6 for a change and the shorter hitters or less confident strikers of the ball -- just another fun way to play it.

A consideration (and in the original drawing) for the green was near the big rock that is on the hillside behind the green, making the hole play about 465 (this is also a possible location for an alternate tee on #4 that was mentioned earlier in the thread).  This was a brutally difficult hole, as the narrow approach gap restricted a view of the faraway green to a very small area in the fairway, and that was a really big strike to have any chance of getting home in two, as the valley behind the current green made it all carry to the far green.  I pulled the green back to its current position and am glad I did -- much more diverse and reasonable to play, but still causing food for thought on recovery shots around the green or from a bad lie.

The optical illusion of the approach shot gets a lot of players, as the slight crown 25-35 yards short and in the narrow gap between the bunkers makes the green appear to be right behind it.  Even knowing the yardage doesn't guarantee you can commit to it.  The kicker at the right front is not visible but can be used to advantage, particularly if you are coming in from the left, where your approach will be softened a bit versus from the right which can propel it over the side.

The mass of bunkers in the 2 dunescapes just kind of evolved and I kept building them until it looked right.  I never intended to build 26 bunkers on one hole (that is really pretty ridiculous!    ), but that is what it came out to be and it looks right for the hole.

The green has some subtleness to it, with some of the breaks very difficult to read --remember that the back right slopes away!

One of my favorite views of the hole is looking at it from #4 tees and often a first-time player will ask what the yardage is to the par 3!  It's a great way to check out where the pin is for later in the round.  There is a great par 3 of about 195 yards from #4 tee to a green site left of the back tee on #7 that I have always liked, but it didn't fit in with other holes . . . maybe someday we could build it as an alternate . . .   

Cheers,
Mike

[ed_getka]

Mike,
   I think mid-June would be a great time for a GCA get together if your schedule allows.

[John Kirk]

For scoring purposes, the key is getting the second shot to that plateau, left side of the fairway, 105-130 yards from the center of the green.  For me, a good drive, followed by a mid-to-long iron.  The second shot is generally a blind one, where you must pick a line.  From that plateau you get a flat lie and a good look at what you're doing.

The back of the #7 green is hellacious.  There are a couple of tiny pin positions back there, where par is a great score.

I'll disagree with Jon Heise and say I think it's one of the least interesting holes on the course.  I play it the same way every time, so I can get a gap wedge in my hand.  A good score is very rewarding here.

I'm more of a back nine guy at Kingsley.  The front nine is funky, but the back nine is fabulous.  In the meantime, bring on The Spolier! 

[Eric_Terhorst]

Anyway to #7:
Wonderful startegic par 5.
Typical of Devries' desire to give the player options on how to play the hole.
Reachable in two for the long hitter, but quite a penalty for missing on the wrong side of the green.

Michael, with that steep slope right and trees left, what are the options off the tee?  It's hit a 5-wood down there and hope for the best.  Similarly on the second shot, you're just trying to get it up to the right to have a look at the green with, again, a narrow window for success.  I suppose from the blue tee it's reachable for the big hitters?

Good green, but getting there was more chore than fun for me.  The only hole on the course I didn't care for.
 

[George Freeman]

I love the movement of #7: from the tee, fairway, second shot landing area, approach, green surrounds, green etc. 

The only real issue I have with the hole is the lack of real possibilities from the tee.  I'm surprised more people haven't been talking about the trees in the landing area, I would have thought those would have created a pretty good debate.

I think the green and bowl right of the green are really good.  I also think the second shot landing area, the "shelf", is really cool w/ all the movement inside of it. 

What is everyone's opinion on the trees?

here are some pics from the website:

[Tim Bert]

Merry Christmas everyone!

The 8th hole is a par 4
365 from the gold tee
349 from the blue tee

The 8th is a short par 4 with a stand-out green complex (on a course full of them.)  The tee shot can be blind, but only if you choose to make it so.  The left side of the fairway is fully visible from the tee and offers plenty of room to hit a safe shot out there.  The problem the golfer faces is the giant bunkering in the middle of the fairway at about the point most of us would like to hit our driver.  This is a hole where most of us will choose to club down on the tee.

The right side of the fairway is blind, and no wider if you choose the driver.  If you opt for less club, there is plenty of room to the right.  One simply needs to muster up the courage to trust the landing area since it can't be seen.  All that is seen of the right side is a large peak of the rolling terrain, and it is filled with bunkers and rough.  Still, a confidently struck shot will have no trouble clearing this visual distraction.

The reason for opting for the right side, even though it is blind and does not offer any more width, is to improve the angle to the green.  From the right side, the golfer can eliminate the greenside bunker from the equation (in most cases.)  From the left side, the approach must attack this bunker, which is not one from which you wish to play.  Although one can skip the bunker challenge approaching from the right side, it is crucial not to stray too far right.  The right side of the green can deflect wayward shots further right, creating a difficult recovery chip or pitch.

Just behind the green is an abrupt incline that makes it very tempting as an aiming spot for rear pin positions.  Distance control is important as too much and the ball will wind up in the rough.  Spin control is necessary as well as one could easily spin a wedge shot back a long way from that hill when the surface is running quickly. 

I love the green setting of this hole.  Viewed from behind, the green location is probably one of my two favorites on the course, along with the 12th.  It just seems to fit the surroundings.  This hole is just one of many excellent short par 4s on the course.

From the tee


The 8th fairway, viewed from well behind the desired landing area


Another look at the fairway from the knob on the right


Looking back from the right side of the fairway


The approach from the right side


Two views from the greenside bunker to help explain the importance of not being in it




The green from behind


The 8th from above and behind - one of my favorite looks on the course


Another view of the fairway and splendid green complex from one of the 9th tees


Special thanks to Mr. Mayhugh, who demonstrated a unique knack for capturing approach shots, unbeknownst to me, that led to birdies on more than one occasion in 2008.

[Steve Lang]

  Can we skip #8 and get onto #9.. frankly # 8 was for me all about playing without greed and ego..

[John Kirk]

Can we skip #8 and get onto #9.. frankly # 8 was for me all about playing without greed and ego..

Well, that, and actually hitting and holding the green with a wedge in your hand.

The three bunkers in the face of the hill that you drive over are known as the "Three Amigos".

There is some debate about the best angle of approach.  Some people feel the best strategy is to drive over the Three Amigos, leaving an approch from the right side, with no bunkers in line with the second shot.  I prefer to try for the left center, just short of the big center fairway bunker, then try from that angle, which opposes the general slope of the green a bit better.

[ed_getka]

I love the green on this hole. There really is no easy shot into that green that I have been able to find. The overall tilt back to front is just one of the challenges you face on this approach. From behind the central fwy bunker you have to really know your yardage as you don't see much, if any, green and the tendency is to be above the pin which makes 2 putting problematic. Pins on the right are guarded by the dropoff on the right side of the green. Short left is bunker, short right is going to roll back quite a ways. Long leaves a very delicate downhill chip. I haven't missed the green left, but I can't imagine it is a picnic over there either.
   Overall just a really solid hole with a great green. Always happy to make par there.

[Jeff Tang]

Interesting hole from tee to green.  The first time around our caddie has us aiming to the right with a driver, a very aggressive line.  I ended up in the weeds to the right of the fairway.  The second time around I played with a 3-wood short of the fairway bunker which still only left me with a nine iron in.  I don't see the advantage to going right, as you can see from some of the pictures looking back towards the tee there really isn't much fairway at all over there, too much risk for the reward in my opinion.

I agree it's a really difficult green to hold.  I can see if the course got too firm that this hole could get away from you with the way the green in sloped in the front.  It's not to difficult to putt off the front of the green if you're putting towards the fairway and then the ball would roll way down into the fairway.

[Buck Wolter]

Well, that, and actually hitting and holding the green with a wedge in your hand.

If you don't hit and hold and it runs off the right side you end up with a 20-30 yard pitch off a tight lie to a green 10 feet above your head. At least as hard as the shot you just missed.

I prefer to try for the left center, just short of the big center fairway bunker, then try from that angle, which opposes the general slope of the green a bit better.

I'll give this a try next time may help me avoid the above.

[Steve Lang]

   Certainly didn't mean to be dismissive of the 8th and its treacherous green complex, but having played it only once (layup to bunker and short iron to center of green) and leaving with a par, I thought it was one of those pauses or transitions before something bigger..  which I think #9 is..

[Adam Clayman]

For the golfer that enjoys the visual challenge of figuring out what the ground is doing versus what the architect has done to both guide and mis-direct, the tee shot on 8 is one for the adrenal glands.
The movement of the ground is so interesting, and so Michigan, it's pure heroin.

JK, Would this hole at KC be the most similar to any hole at BN? 

[John Kirk]

For the golfer that enjoys the visual challenge of figuring out what the ground is doing versus what the architect has done to both guide and mis-direct, the tee shot on 8 is one for the adrenal glands.
The movement of the ground is so interesting, and so Michigan, it's pure heroin.

JK, Would this hole at KC be the most similar to any hole at BN? 

#14

[Mark Arata]

8 was the most boring hole on the course for me, I had the same approach shot into the green all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side directly across from the fairway bunker...... 

I loved 8 because it was not as nearly visually intimidating as 7, and yet it is just as diabolical if you dont put the ball where it needs to be off the tee and with your approach. I actually had a few decent rounds going before butchering 7 - 9.......

Still waiting to voice my opinion on that short par 5 hole coming up next......

[PThomas]

....all 7 times, from the Arata memorial tree grove on the left side

Still waiting to voice my opinion on that short par 5 hole coming up next......

good stuff Mark!

[George Freeman]

I'm kind of surprised to hear quite a few people mention that this was one of the more bland/boring holes on the course for them.  This is one on my favorite looks off the tee, and I really like the different options there as well. 

I think this is one of the harder approaches on the course:  too much spin or not enough distance, and you are coming back 40 yards away from the hole.  If you end up above the hole, a two putt is excellent.  My play has been a five wood right at the bunker (staying short), and playing for the middle of the green, trying not to put too much spin on it with a wedge/short iron.

For some reason this hole just fits my eye...

Here are some pics from the website:

[Brian_Sleeman]

Has anyone smashed a drive here to the right of the central fairway bunker and stayed in the fairway?  That seems to be an awfully risky play, considering the slope wants to kick you into the bunker and the fairway is particularly narrow in that corridor.  With the tough angle from the left fairway, I tend to hit a long iron over the knob on the right and let it coast on down to wedge distance short and right of the central bunker.

It's all about getting a comfortable second here, at least as comfortable as it can be.  It's one of the scariest targets on the course with the visual of what awaits if you miss, particularly short or left.  In that regard it's kind of an appetizer for what awaits you on the 9th.  That said, I've seen some incredible up and downs for pars here.  Great short four and a really fun match play hole.

[Steve Lang]

  On a hole, one plays prudently and scores well.. time and time again.. one plays aggresively, has more fun/different challenges and pays many different prices en route to the next tee..  same hole.   Some say great.

Is it really the reward or simply the fact that it keeps enticing one to try differrent approaches because it is just a relative pause in the flow of the course routing.  Play it enough times and you certainly learn all the consequences.  How do folks play it in competition during match play and stroke play.. i'd assume very differently. 

No knock, just considering the alternatives..  and how scared do club members get on many views/backgrounds here.. respect is one thing, been there done that repetition certainly lowers player anxiety.. except perhaps for the 9th, where experience is perhaps more like a Greek Tragedy

[Tim Bert]

#9 is a par 3
There are two sets of tees, the southern set and the western set.
The scorecard lists the gold tee as 171 and the blue tee as 128.
The web site lists the gold as 157 and the blue as 133.
I am not sure from which set of tees those yardages are taken.
My recollection is that the yardage on the hole played shorter from the western tee.

The green is a bit of a boomerang, with a wing branching out toward each tee.  The tee shot is mostly carry from either tee, though the carry sholdn't really be an issue.  The unfortunate player who fails to make the carry - likely due to nerves - is left with an extremely difficult recovery.  Much of the inside of the boomerang is protected by bunkers.  The outside of the boomerang needs no such defense due to the shape of the land. 

The day we played the course, the pin was set out on the wing of the green nearest to the south tee.  We played the south tee in the morning and the west tee in the afternoon.  The tee shot to this pin location was sufficiently terrifying from both tee sets in my opinion.

From the south tee, the south portion of the green looks like a tiny sliver.  There is no margin for error right or left, though the best miss may well be left in the bunker.  Missing right will kick the bal away from the green.  Missing long and right will leave a nearly impossible up and down, as I discovered the hard way.

From the west tee, the south portion of the green still looks like a sliver.  The green is built so that landing on the west portion of the green will still allow a putt to go around the corner.  Landing here is is probably the safest best, unless you choose to opt for the previously mentioned bunker.  There is an additional option from the west tee, and that is missing slightly left where the hill should send the ball back down to the green. 

While the overall green size feels sizeable, the shape makes it play much smaller.  This is one of the most demanding holes of this length I've played.  It requires nothing but precision on the tee shot and all shots that follow.  A blow-up 'X' is definitely a possibility here.  A real match-swinger at the turn.

The divine back nine awaits!

The intimidating view from the South tee


It isn't a good idea to miss short from the South tee.  Check the wind and make sure you've got enough club!  Oh, and make sure to execute.


The less intimidating (??) view from the West tee.


A closer look from the West tee


Another look from the west - at green level


A look at the green from the west portion


A look from behind shows the difficult angle that awaits he (me) that misses the green long and right when playing from the South tee

[John Mayhugh]

What to say about the 9th?  That's one of the most nerve-wracking tee shots I've had on a par 3 w/o there being water or OB.  I don't think the photos do it justice.  If you're aiming for the right side of the green, you'd better be precise.  The entire green plays very shallow, but especially this side.  I can't wait to get a chance to play it again. 

In a windy day, aim left and try to minimize the scorecard damage.  ANOTHER great match play hole.

[Andy Troeger]

I meant to comment that I also really like the 8th hole--not the fanciest at Kingsley but a fun one that can bite the golfer that doesn't give it the proper respect.

I'd have liked to have seen the 9th with different pin placements. As much as any short hole I've played the pin there seems to make a HUGE difference. I have a hard believing any of them are easy, however.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have only played Kingsley three times but have hit about 20 shots from each of the two main tees.  I have no clue how to play the hole.  It requires a precise shot and demands great execution.  I can't decide whether I like the hole or hate it.  All I know is that I want another shot at it.

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