[Mike_DeVries]

Tim,

Did Mike mention why he decided not to bunker the ridge that cuts into the fairway from the left, in the second shot landing area?

David,
There are lots of bunkers on the hole and course -- the ridge doesn't really need bunkers to enhance it and I think the long rough is enough of a hazard.  It's a good question and I don't think anyone else has ever asked it -- thanks for making me think about it!
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Plus, lets not forget the WIND!!!   or if your like Mr. Devries, you don't have to worry about the wind, just hit it low

Nev,
I always thought you were supposed to hit it low. . . that's what the Downs demands from you!   
Cheers,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

I played the course five times in July, and I cannot wait to return. In fact, we've realigned our yearly 8 man ryder cup to take place at Kingsley this June.  Many are GCA Lurkers, I hope this thread provides them with an understanding of just how special a course it is.

I agree, the first is one of the greatest opener's I've ever played.  I've not played Crystal yet, but I understand that the bunker complex defending the tee shot are at a minimum based on, if not an homage to the fifth hole there.  I'm sure there are a few here who have played both many times. Is KC reminiscent of CD?

I have to add, the conditions I played in were nothing less than superb. The ground game is alive and well at KC, despite what Dye says about the state of that game in America.

It is going to be a long winter...

Mike,
Glad you like the course and great to hear you are returning with your group -- sounds like fun!

The bunkers on #1 are not based on anything from the Downs, although CD has been, and continues to be, the most influential golf course for me -- every time I am on the course, I learn something about golf course architecture. 

Further to some other questions following this, I grew up playing and working at the Downs, spending every day of the summer at the course throughout high school and college there.  I have been a member for more than 15 years and have a lot of family in the area, so it will always be "home" for me.  Personally, it is the reason that I got into the business -- I am not sure I would be as passionate about course design if I had grown up at Joe Blow Muni (not that there is anything wrong with that -- I am just lucky that my family was in the area where the Downs is and that gave me the opportunity to be influenced by its greatness early on).  The Downs deserves its recognition as one of the great courses of the world and I appreciate that more and more with my exposure to the world's other great tracks.

Best,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

Tim,

It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement.  It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.

Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well. 

Hey, my dad and brother are lefties -- maybe I just have a soft spot for southpaws!   
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

It can't be emphasized enough how Dan Lucas and crew maintain Kingsley. It's truly an ideal MM.

Adam and others following his lead,
Dan and his crew really "get it" and maintain the golf course so you can play it.  Occasionally, the greens might get too fast but I haven't seen that in a long time.  They are firm and roll true, allowing for a stroke even when above the hole, and don't just have you praying the ball will stop.  The multiple options for some of the more extreme putting situations also make it fun and allow the player to hedge his bet in certain situations.
Best,
Mike

[Mike_DeVries]

I like a par 5 opener, and this one is exceptional.   Add my thanks to the pile Tim.

Speaking of maintenance meld, however, am I the only one who wonders if the long nasty grass around the center bunkers is really necessary?  (And yes, I am an embittered golfer who watched a slightly errant tee shot hop in there, never to be seen again...)

Aren't the bunkers penal enough all by themselves for those who miss the right or left by a bit?

Couldn't the grass be made playable, a 1/2 stroke penalty, instead of lost-ball deep?

Eric,
That is certainly an irregular occurrence -- it is not easy but it is unusual to lose a ball in there.  The intention throughout the golf course is for the bunkers to tie in ruggedly with the surrounding landscape, so having long grass is not against the design.  In some instances, the turf can get a bit too thick but, for the most part, the ball is findable and playable.  There is plenty of open play space on the hole and having a hazard severe is okay in my mind.
Best,
Mike

[Mike_Cirba]

Quite frankly, and I say this fully understanding I will be in the VAST minority, I prefer Kingsley slightly to CD. I think they are both outstanding.  One of my playing partners at Kingsley shared my opinion, so there are at least to of us that walk the Earth. This opinion is equal portions design and course presentation. Full kudos are due to the grounds crew. More on that throughout.   

Tim,

It must be a left-handed thing because I'm in complete agreement.  It's in my top 5 Modern courses I've played.

Funny you say that because the other person that shares my view plays left-handed as well. 

Hey, my dad and brother are lefties -- maybe I just have a soft spot for southpaws!   
Mike

Mike,

Then you're dad and brother would likely agree with my assertion that not only are we more creative, we're better looking too.   

[Tim Bert]

#4 is a par 4
411 from the Gold tee
385 from the Blue tee

The 4th hole makes its way back somewhat parallel to #3, though it is a straighter hole.  Straighter when it comes to lack of left or right dogleg that is.  It can't be called straight vertically, as it is a roller coaster from tee to green (okay, I should really save this statement for the 17th.)  The fairway on this hole is funtastic!!  The tee shot is somewhat blind, because of the humps and the native grass.  Hitting all you've got will most likely leave you with a blind approach from the bottom of one of the many valleys.  Depending upon your comfort with a longer approach, less club off the tee might be the proper order.  If you lay back, you will be rewarded with a clearer view of the approach and the green.  There is plenty of room left off this tee.  I know, I was there twice.  While the left is spacious, it isn't really preferable.  You won't get a good look at the putting surface from over there.  Hopefully, you were paying attention when you passed by from the 2nd green to the 3rd tee...

There is one final deep down and up right in front of this monstrous green - the second consecutive hole with a green of epic proportions.  This one is a little less oddly shaped than #3, but it is challenging nonetheless.  There is a rather large hump or spine that runs through the middle of the green, making it important to hit the front or the rear - wherever the pin is that day.

#4 is another really good hole in the impressive opening stretch at Kingsley. 

From the tee


The view (or lack thereof) from the left side of the fairway


Another view from the left side, slightly closer to the green.  You can clearly see the pin, but you can also see that the putting surface is well hidden from this angle.


The preferred angle from the right side of the fairway


Stray too far right and you might still get the obstructed view (and have to tangle with the nasty bunkers.)


Another view from the right side, closer to the green.  You can see the final dip in the fairway leading up to the green


A view of some of the bunkering and the 4th green from the 3rd fairway


The front view of the green


The rear view of the green


The 4th green from the 2nd green


The 4th green from the 5th tee.  The number of holes that provide an ample view of the 4th green is special recurring characteristic of the front nine!

[George Freeman]

This is definitely one of my favorite holes on the course.  I will expound later, but here are some pics from the website until then.

[Rob Rigg]

This hole appears to have a real "british isles" feel to it - very natural look of the tee with the fairway obscured. Then the undulations of the fairway and the combination of bunkers and native enroaching on the fairway in front of the green.

A lovely hole.

[John Kirk]

Great green.  This hole yields a lot of long and enjoyable first putts.

Some might argue the "A" position, in the center on the top on the fairway, is too hard to attain.

[Tom_Doak]

Another of my favorite holes on the course.  This is the kind of hole you can only build when you have some really interesting ground to work with ... you can't make up stuff like this out of thin air.

John K, I wouldn't agree that Position A is too hard to obtain, because you will still be in the fairway even if you fail.  The reward is only about visibility, and there's no reason that should be so easy to find.

[John Kirk]

If I've got a 3-wood in the bag I might hit it here.  A little less than a full length driver for me, as it plays a bit downhill.  You can get yourself into trouble both left and right if the ball travels 275 yards.  I generally aim at the left center of the fairway, because you can see what you're doing if the ball bounds to the left side.

The big ridge short of the green makes for some interesting shots when the pin is tucked in the front of the green.

The green has bold, smooth contours, one of two consecutive bowl shaped greens.

[ed_getka]

This hole is an example of a partially blind tee shot that helps make the hole even more challenging. The first time you play it you are uneasy in commiting to the tee shot. The next time and subsequently the tee shot becomes even harder because of the hogsback nature of the fairway and the knowledge of how difficult it is to put yourself up on top so your approach won't be blind. Another excellent semi-blind tee shot is seen on #6.
  The green is one of my favorites there. The berm that rolls into the green really does a great job of protecting front pin positions. Then as the front 2/3 of the green slopes upward to the high point there are lots of interesting internal contours that make any putt a fun challenge. Finally you have the small punchbowl in the back over the spine that divides the green. If I have been back there in 2 it was by accident. The punchbowl is a bit narrower than the front of the green and with flanking bunkers it takes steady nerves to try to go all the way back there to attack a back pin.

[Kyle Henderson]

That looks like an amazing piece of ground that Mr. DeVries molded. I love the fairway contours and the manner in which they flow directly into the greens. None of those artificially raised putting surfaces.

Thanks for the thread, Tim!

[JNC Lyon]

This is the kind of hole that can only be found through careful examinations of the site.  So many golf holes get praised because they make great use of bold natural features.  However, isn't a hole like this harder to find on a property.  The land certainly does not stand out at first glance, but a subtle feature like the spine in the right side of the fairway is critical to the strategy of the hole.  Why doesn't this type of hole get more attention?

[John Mayhugh]

Another example of visual intimidation from the tee.  I'm not sure how much this would diminish over repeated playing, but even knowing what to do it was still tough to commit to the tee shot.  I think approaching from the left side wouldn't be too bad with the hole in the front of the green, but with it in the back that's one tough shot to pull off.  Just a little mishit and your in one of the bunkers.

That putt from the front of the green to the back is very entertaining.

[Joe Hancock]

A note from the "Memorable Shots" file...

I was on the front right collar of this green, and the pin was back left. I don't know if it was the best play option, but I did what seemed most entertaining at the time; I took the sand wedge and pitched the ball to the back left collar and let the ball feed back to the pin instead of putting over the ridge. It ended up a foot from the hole and was very satisfying to have that shot available.

Joe

[Tom_Doak]

JNC Lyon:  Hopefully Mike DeVries will see your comment and my response and post, but I would be willing to bet that the positioning of the fourth hole was really conceived first as a way to get from #3 green to #5 tee, and then he found a cool place for a landing area, instead of the landing area for #4 being one of the first things he zeroed in on in the routing.

I know from my own routings that a lot of the cool subtle stuff comes on the second pass ... you find bigger things first, but then it happens that you find a cool subtle feature in between and figure out how to use that, and it becomes one of the best holes on the property when you never saw it to begin with.

I've mentioned before that this is also true of the 13th hole at High Pointe ... I had seen the green site from the beginning, but the hole is just a necessary connection after I found #12 and #14.  And it turned out to be my favorite hole in the bunch.

[Mark Arata]

This might be my favorite hole on the course.....I can't decide between this, 1, 2, 3, 5-9, and 10-18...

Seriously, I love this hole, it was such a blast to play......

I can't wait until you get to the discussion about the 9th hole so we can talk about the shortest par 5 in America.........

[RSLivingston_III]

#4 is a wonderful hole. I have always particularly liked the drive. I learned to hit a low tee shot at the bunker on the left front of the green and have it hit the back face of the bowl just past the forward tee. For me it would bounce and run straight towards the green along the top of the ridge leaving a perfect view of the entire green for the approach shot. Shots slightly right will be deflected slightly left so they will also stay up on the ridge. Of course a shot more then slightly right will end up down in that deep bowl. More then slightly left and your down that big slope tempting having to hit out of the edge of the rough.
Then there is the approach shot...

[JNC Lyon]

JNC Lyon:  Hopefully Mike DeVries will see your comment and my response and post, but I would be willing to bet that the positioning of the fourth hole was really conceived first as a way to get from #3 green to #5 tee, and then he found a cool place for a landing area, instead of the landing area for #4 being one of the first things he zeroed in on in the routing.

I know from my own routings that a lot of the cool subtle stuff comes on the second pass ... you find bigger things first, but then it happens that you find a cool subtle feature in between and figure out how to use that, and it becomes one of the best holes on the property when you never saw it to begin with.

I've mentioned before that this is also true of the 13th hole at High Pointe ... I had seen the green site from the beginning, but the hole is just a necessary connection after I found #12 and #14.  And it turned out to be my favorite hole in the bunch.

That makes a lot of sense from a practicality standpoint.  Might it be better to seek out the small features first?  It seems like holes like the fourth at Kingsley are often more fun to play and of greater architectural merit than those with big features.  Although less dramatic, it seems a hole like 4 at Kingsley is both more fun and more maddening than a hole like 1 that utilizes the most dramatic elements of the property.

[Tom_Doak]

JNC:  The problem with seeking out the small features first is that on land like Kingsley, you are likely to get left with a couple of very blind holes as connectors.  Most of my routings are done visibility-first.

[JC Jones]

What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway...

Going back to #3.  The green reminds me and the hole, generally, of #1 at High Pointe.  Tom Doak, please correct me if you think Im WAY off base.

[John Kirk]

What I love about #4 is that one can birdie it, hitting their second shot from #3 fairway...

Put the ol' cut swing on it.  Nice.

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